The Life of a Showgirl and Being a Swiftie

Nathan Holbert:
Welcome to Pop and Play, the podcast all about play and pop culture, and how it shapes our lives. I'm Nathan Holbert, and with me, as always, is Haeny, life of a showgirl, Yoon.

Haeny Yoon:
Oh, thank you. I'm Haeny Yoon, and today we are kicking off season six with Play Dates, a new segment of Pop and Play episodes where we invite you to play along with us. Each play date which is a play experience, and let you know in advance what we're up to, and then invite a guest to help us reflect on why this particular form of play matters.

Nathan Holbert:
That's right.

Haeny Yoon:
And this is your favorite one of the whole season.

Nathan Holbert:
We kicked it off with a biggie, and if you're a member of the Pop or Not community, you've been listening along, you know that this first one is playing with music, and specifically, we are going to be playing with Haeny.

Haeny Yoon:
Life of a Showgirl.

Nathan Holbert:
Which is not only the name of this album, but it's also what you shout every time you walk into Teachers College, right?

Haeny Yoon:
Yes. You shout Elizabeth Taylor. Yes. Okay.

Nathan Holbert:
So, tell our audience what we did for this play date, and let's kind of get into it.

Haeny Yoon:
Yeah. So we actually went to the premiere of the music video for the "Fate of Ophelia" along with a Taylor Swift sing-along. That's basically what I call it.

Nathan Holbert:
Taylor Swift sing-along. Yeah.

Haeny Yoon:
It's a movie/film, but really it's kind of a listening party sing along.

Nathan Holbert:
You kept telling me we were going to see a film, not a movie, and then it was a sing-along.

Haeny Yoon:
Well, it was a 10-minute "Fate of Ophelia" film, I guess.

Nathan Holbert:
That's true.

Haeny Yoon:
So thanks to our lovely friend, Lalitha, who got us tickets in record time, three minutes.

Nathan Holbert:
Wow.

Haeny Yoon:
We were able to get there, go to AMC with our friend Jackie Simmons, who is the host of Curriculum Encounters. So several old-fashioneds in, we shimmied our way to AMC.

Nathan Holbert:
And this is, I know a dumb question, but tell us about, have you listened to the album?

Haeny Yoon:
Many, many times.

Nathan Holbert:
How many times have you listened to it?

Haeny Yoon:
I have no idea. Maybe like 10.

Nathan Holbert:
10. Okay. So this is, we're recording this the day after it came out.

Haeny Yoon:
Yes.

Nathan Holbert:
So in the what, 35 hours or so, you've listened to it 10 times?

Haeny Yoon:
Maybe 10 times, yes. And I stayed up till midnight to listen to it the first night it dropped, and you know I don't do that because that's two hours past my bedtime.

Nathan Holbert:
All right. We are going to go to a film experience, I believe. Not a movie. Not a movie. And we'll get back with you after that.

Haeny Yoon:
We'll let you know if Taylor will be there.

Lalitha Vasudevan:
You never know.

Haeny Yoon:
Who knows.

Lalitha Vasudevan:
You never know.

Haeny Yoon:
Who knows. Who knows. It's showbiz baby [inaudible 00:02:40].

Nathan Holbert:
It's the life.

Haeny Yoon:
What was your favorite part?

Jacqueline Simmons:
Right here. Right here.

Lalitha Vasudevan:
My favorite part was the selective editing to make it PG.

Nathan Holbert:
Yeah, that was very funny.

Jacqueline Simmons:
I like seeing how they put together a video that was a lot of hard work-

Nathan Holbert:
That was cool. That was cool.

Jacqueline Simmons:
... and a lot of professionals at work.

Nathan Holbert:
My favorite part. My favorite part was ...

Haeny Yoon:
When you became a Swiftie?

Nathan Holbert:
The music video.

Jacqueline Simmons:
That's good. It's a good music video.

Haeny Yoon:
So it's good to see it at the beginning and the end.

Nathan Holbert:
It was good, yeah, we got to see all the stages. Yeah. I'm in. I'm a huge Swiftie now.

Jacqueline Simmons:
And your favorite was just-

Nathan Holbert:
Everybody knows it.

Jacqueline Simmons:
... all of it?

Haeny Yoon:
Everything. [inaudible 00:03:15].

Nathan Holbert:
Okay. So that was a lot, and there was quite a lot of cheersing that Haeny kept making us do. There was singing along. There were kids in boas dancing in the theater. A whole lot of inside bits and jokes and orange apparently mattered for some reason. And I honestly struggled that day to make sense of what the hell was going on around me. And so play is important, but sometimes you need experts to help you reflect on that play. And that's what we've done today is we've brought in an expert, Cassie Brownell, associate professor in the Department of Curriculum, Teaching, and Learning at the Ontario Institute for Studies in Education, and noted Taylor Swift scholar as well. Cassie, welcome.

Cassie Brownell:
Thank you. Thank you very much. Very excited to be here.

Nathan Holbert:
We're super excited to have you. My first question, we have lots to get into, but my first question is like, what do you think of the album? How do you feel about Life of a Showgirl?

Cassie Brownell:
Yeah, that's a really big, very contentious sort of question right now amongst the fandom. However, I will say on first listen, I was like, "Okay, there's some I think I'm into. There's some I'm maybe not into." But I also went to the theater, and then I was sort of sold on almost the whole album, I'd say.

Nathan Holbert:
Oh, interesting.

Haeny Yoon:
Yeah, that's how I felt too, because one of my friends actually texted me the day that it came out, and she's like, "What do you think about the album? I've talked to two people who are like, yeah, it's just okay." And my response to her was, I'm like, "I do not like to comment on Taylor Swift albums right away." I need to digest it.

Nathan Holbert:
Need some time.

Haeny Yoon:
Yes. And so I respect that, Cassie. It's like I saw this thing on social media where someone was like, "Oh, this album is not her best." And the second day, all the songs are in her head, and the third day, she's rocking out to them because they're all bops.

Nathan Holbert:
I think that actually is true, and as much as I'm not really up on the Taylor Swift discography, I definitely have a few of those songs that stuck with me for a few days. And at one point, Hannah was listening to some playlist, and my wife Hannah and a song came on I was like, "Oh, that's that Taylor Swift song." I recognize it, and she's like, "Okay."

Haeny Yoon:
Yeah. I mean, we are on equal footing now. We have equal knowledge because we-

Nathan Holbert:
Equal knowledge. Wow.

Haeny Yoon:
Yes, because we experienced it together. Anyway, Cassie, tell us, what are some of your faves? What are you into today? Because we know it changes.

Cassie Brownell:
It does. It does change a lot. I think that initially I was not really a big fan of "Father Figure", but "Father Figure" is one that I definitely really like right now. I thought it was a bop, and it's definitely one that's playing in my head. Obviously, "Life of Ophelia" is very fun. The music video really helps to make it fun. I think The Life of a Showgirl has some really good storytelling. Reminds me a little bit of the Britney Spears "Lucky" vibe, which I'm here for.

Haeny Yoon:
Nice. Very good.

Nathan Holbert:
"Father Figure" definitely made me laugh out loud the first time I heard it. I was cooking in my kitchen by myself, trying to cram for this event we were going to go to together, and-

Haeny Yoon:
Studying.

Nathan Holbert:
And I shouted, "Ah," when that chorus came up. It's a pretty funny song. We're going to get into a lot about Taylor Swift, but I know we're already kind of eased in and all, but we always like to play a game, and I would hate for you to come all the way here to hang out with us in New York and for us not to play a game with you. That would just be-

Haeny Yoon:
Devastating.

Nathan Holbert:
... devastating. That's the word I was going to choose. So here's the game that we've come up with. You're going to play DJ, all right? And I'm going to give you a variety of situations that you may or may not have already had. And so feel free to draw on prior experience if that's relevant or not. And also feel free to stick to Taylor or feel free to go outside of the Taylor Swift discography. I think there's a lot of possible options for you here, but I want you to think about at least a song, if not an album, that feels like it fits the moment.

Cassie Brownell:
Can I just clarify that I am not a music snob and I listen to way more NPR than I do music? So this could be a challenge.

Nathan Holbert:
Nina Totenberg is an option.

Cassie Brownell:
Okay, great. beautiful.

Haeny Yoon:
No, you're having a party. So, for instance, make them all Taylor Swift then.

Nathan Holbert:
No, I really want her to say Nina Totenberg.

Haeny Yoon:
Yeah. This is Terry Gross.

Nathan Holbert:
Okay. Well, we'll start out easy here. This is probably something that you may have actually done. Let's imagine you're throwing a party, and what's unique about this party is you're inviting both work friends and non-work friends. They're going to encounter each other probably for the first time at this event, and so in my head, I'm imagining that you're willing for the experience to get a little out of hand, a little crazy, but you still want to be able to show your face at the university on Monday. So what kind of songs do you imagine putting on?

Cassie Brownell:
Wow, what kind of songs? That's like a tough one. I mean, I do feel like something like the track list to the Eras Tour could really work in favor. Also, it depends on my colleagues are sometimes older than some of my friends might be. So it might also be worthwhile to think about what are some good karaoke hits that are throwbacks. There's some old reliables. A lot of people like to scream sing "Jack & Diane" at various times.

Haeny Yoon:
Oh my God. "Jack & Diane" is a good one. Solid. Yes.

Nathan Holbert:
That's a good one. In those events, you want to have somebody go, "Oh my God, I love this song." At least every 20 minutes or so.

Cassie Brownell:
Totally.

Nathan Holbert:
Okay, here's another one. You're driving on a road trip and you have a just recently teened niece or cousin or somebody with you in the car and you are determined to be the cool aunt or the cool cousin. What do you put on the playlists?

Cassie Brownell:
Well, my niece is not a teen. Unfortunately, she's only eight, but I do think a KPop Demon Hunters would be a very big hit right now. But I do know also that there are some teens who are really into it.

Nathan Holbert:
But she's going to be a teen someday.

Cassie Brownell:
She is going to be a teen someday.

Nathan Holbert:
And what do you think? This is your chance [inaudible 00:09:18]-

Haeny Yoon:
KPop Demon Hunters is a solid choice. If you could maybe sing "Golden" off-key, you're golden. Ah, I get it.

Nathan Holbert:
I got it. KPop Demon Hunters. All right.

Cassie Brownell:
I just feel like there's a little bit of judgment coming from you for some of these answers.

Nathan Holbert:
Just a little bit. I mean, I'm just kidding.

Haeny Yoon:
Nathan's like, I would play this Star Wars theme song-

Nathan Holbert:
Yeah, basically.

Haeny Yoon:
... over and over.

Nathan Holbert:
More John Williams, please. Okay. How about this? It's a breakup. You're in the middle of a breakup, but you're the breaker. So you need something to listen to, and you're not so sad maybe, but maybe a little sad, maybe a little justified. I don't know.

Cassie Brownell:
Oh, wow.

Haeny Yoon:
What would you pick?

Cassie Brownell:
Well, I mean, when you first had a breakup, I just thought of Sam Smith.

Nathan Holbert:
Oh, okay. Yeah.

Cassie Brownell:
I feel like that's like a kind of ... Even if you're the person doing the breaking up, you might have some feelings because maybe you've hurt someone's feelings. But this is where I also think Taylor Swift has many albums, various songs that could fit.

Haeny Yoon:
What song would you choose?

Cassie Brownell:
Oh my gosh, what song to choose in the moment? I mean, I don't know. I mean, I think that I would probably be choosing actually romantic right now from the new album because maybe they're still thinking a lot about me.

Haeny Yoon:
Oh, nice.

Nathan Holbert:
Yeah.

Haeny Yoon:
Ooh, good.

Cassie Brownell:
And maybe they weren't very romantic otherwise.

Nathan Holbert:
So I mean, I'm sure our fans have already listened to the album in full, but can you tell us why that song might be appropriate in this case?

Cassie Brownell:
It's sort of about how somebody, like you, live rent-free in somebody else's head, and so they're thinking a lot about you, and so you're saying, "That's really cute. It's really romantic that you would put such effort into thinking about me," which is sometimes-

Haeny Yoon:
And you're not thinking about them.

Cassie Brownell:
No, not at all.

Nathan Holbert:
But you put on the song, so you kind of are.

Cassie Brownell:
Also true.

Nathan Holbert:
Catch 22. I think we should end with that one. I have a few more, but I think we should end with it. I feel like we got a sense of how you use music to express yourself in all these variety of situations. And I look forward to attending that party with... I don't know if I'm work friend or if I'm friend friend-

Cassie Brownell:
Friend friend it's very confusing.

Nathan Holbert:
Maybe I can be both.

Cassie Brownell:
Both. Yeah, I think that's fine.

Haeny Yoon:
Yeah. I mean, I appreciate what you said, Cassie, because really this episode is about music, but it's really about play and being a Swiftie, right? Which I feel like is a whole nother universe that is beyond just music, and so I think that point will come out, so don't worry. We will talk lots of things, Swiftie. So before we talk about that, though, we thought we would first talk about music, right? And so do you remember the first album you purchased, or a song or a record that you were really obsessed with or really into in childhood? And who introduced you to it, and how did you get into it?

Cassie Brownell:
Yeah. So I think there's like... I was thinking about a couple of things related to this because I think both about... I'm a kid who was born in the late '80s, so cassettes were still a thing.

Nathan Holbert:
Oh, yeah.

Cassie Brownell:
And we also had vinyl records at my house. So definitely one of my favorite cassettes that I think I ran through was the Sesame Street Christmas album, which was-

Haeny Yoon:
Oh, that's awesome.

Cassie Brownell:
... really, "Let It Snow" was, I think, Cookie Monster sang it. It was pretty amazing.

Nathan Holbert:
Nice.

Cassie Brownell:
But I also remember we did a lot of road trips. I grew up in Montana. There are long distances to drive. So Wilson Phillips was something my mom had.

Haeny Yoon:
Oh my God. Hold on for one more day.

Cassie Brownell:
Such a classic.

Haeny Yoon:
Wait, should we bust out into karaoke?

Nathan Holbert:
That is a karaoke one, right? I feel like I can still remember the cover of that tape, and it was like the three of them-

Haeny Yoon:
Three of them.

Nathan Holbert:
Exactly.

Cassie Brownell:
It's perfect. So I think those... I think that I got a CD player when I was in fourth or fifth grade, so around nine or 10. And of course I had Hootie & the Blowfish, "Hold My Hand" was very hot, fourth grade-

Haeny Yoon:
Oh, that's a good one too.

Cassie Brownell:
... new relationships. And I also, my brother sold me because he was four years older than me and knew how to make profit off his little sister, the 19-

Haeny Yoon:
Oh, he physically sold you.

Cassie Brownell:
Yes. I think I got a CD with the CD player. And then I think my brother was like, "I will sell you this 1996 Grammy Nominees CD." And I bought it, and it had don't go chasing waterfalls. It had so many good-

Nathan Holbert:
That's a good one.

Cassie Brownell:
You should go back. It's a banger after banger after banger on that one.

Haeny Yoon:
That's so funny because when you said my brother sold me on this, I thought it was more like convinced.

Cassie Brownell:
Oh no, just actually sold me this to make some money.

Nathan Holbert:
Literally selling. Yeah.

Haeny Yoon:
Oh my gosh, that's so funny.

Nathan Holbert:
Can you think of your first album or?

Haeny Yoon:
Yeah. Michael Jackson's Thriller.

Nathan Holbert:
That was your first album?

Haeny Yoon:
Yeah.

Nathan Holbert:
That you bought with your money?

Haeny Yoon:
No, I didn't actually buy it. Okay. I actually take that back. So I was in elelementary school and my dad, he's a Korean immigrant, right? I didn't think he knew anything about the things that I was really into at the time, and he came home with it.

Nathan Holbert:
That's cool.

Haeny Yoon:
And that's the memory that I have with it. I remember opening it up and seeing Michael Jackson with the... He had his wrist where his vein's popping out on the side, and there's a tiger or something on the cover. Oh my God. And it was like he was wearing this white suit and a black backdrop, and I was like, "This is the coolest thing ever."

Nathan Holbert:
And you were right, that actually is still the coolest thing ever, I think.

Haeny Yoon:
Yeah. I was pretty into it. I listened to it a lot.

Nathan Holbert:
Yeah, that was a good one. I'm actually a little disappointed, though, because I had a feeling I thought you might have a similar experience as me, which was being steeped heavily in religion, that your first album would be a religious album like mine was.

Haeny Yoon:
What was it?

Nathan Holbert:
The first CD, I mean, I had some tapes and things, but the first CD I bought, I remember with my own money, was Michael W. Smith.

Haeny Yoon:
Oh, nice.

Nathan Holbert:
Because I'm very cool.

Haeny Yoon:
If you know, you know. Michael W. Smith.

Nathan Holbert:
Our friend Mike Dando is singing along right now, I'm sure. But to your point, who introduced you to music? I had an older sister as well, and our rooms were next to each other. And I distinctly remember when I was in elementary and middle school, I'd be making my bed up, and her radio would be blaring. She would just have Ace of Base on loop. She had the single, and so she would play it and then she'd turn it around and play it again and just be like that song all morning.

Haeny Yoon:
I saw the signs.

Nathan Holbert:
I saw the signs all morning.

Haeny Yoon:
... my eyes I saw the signs.
Wait, is this about karaoke?

Nathan Holbert:
I think it is.

Haeny Yoon:
I don't know. This conversation is making me think about how music is not necessarily just something that people, musicians, are really into. I think there's some of us that music is their work and their job, and I think that's very different than us enjoying music for our play and thinking about the relationships that we've had, right? The phases that we've gone through, our memories, and our brother selling us CDs when he should have just given it to us. So I feel like there's a lot of really cool memories of play connected to music when it's not your job, but it's a form of play, an outlet.

Nathan Holbert:
Yeah. It's so much a part of just culture and one of the things that in my work and in past projects, we were trying to think of... We were building a game. To give it a specific example, we were building this game, and we were trying to think about a game that would appeal broadly to kids, and we realized like, oh, it can't be Pokemon or something because that's a specific thing. But music, we realized we could make a game about music, and then teens of all kinds would find something to connect with in there. And that turned out to be true. It's cool how that works. Which is also partly why I was poking you a little more on the teen road trip, because I feel like I have a teen now, and I'm always trying to figure out what is he going to be into. How can I introduce him to cool stuff?

Cassie Brownell:
I mean, I grew up... I'm the eldest of my cousins on my mom's side, but I would road trip with my aunts and uncles as a pseudo babysitter along the way and-

Haeny Yoon:
Oh, yeah, eldest daughter.

Cassie Brownell:
Eldest daughter. And I remember driving from Montana to St. Louis, Illinois, with my aunt and uncle. My uncle's this Marine who loves AC/DC. And I was like, "Can you play this Britney Spears album? Can you play the Backstreet Boys?" And he still doesn't let me live this down, but I still maintain the same kind of pride that I have as a Swiftie, where I'm like, "No, I'm a pop girlie." That's fine.

Nathan Holbert:
I like what I like.

Cassie Brownell:
That's fine.

Haeny Yoon:
Exactly.

Nathan Holbert:
And did he play those things?

Cassie Brownell:
He did, but I think very briefly. And then we moved back to-

Haeny Yoon:
AC/DC and Nine Inch Nails-

Cassie Brownell:
AC/DC-

Haeny Yoon:
... that kind of thing.

Nathan Holbert:
Why not both is what I say.

Haeny Yoon:
Yeah. Why not both?

Nathan Holbert:
Okay. So I need to know about, because I'm very ignorant about the whole Swiftie culture, other than knowing it's a huge, huge, huge thing. How did you get into it? When did this start? What drew you to Taylor Swift's music, and how did you get involved in the community?

Cassie Brownell:
Yeah. So I think that it's hard to pinpoint the exact moment. As I mentioned, I grew up in Montana, country music was sort of... I was a pop girlie, but I also listened to a lot of country. So I remember I was in college when Taylor Swift debuted, and I just remember scream singing at the bar, various songs from her different albums. But I also remember my cousin is 10 years younger than I am, and so she lived in the city that I was in when I was going to college. And I actually think I might have gotten the physical CD for Taylor Swift's debut from her because she was like, "You should listen to this. " And I was being a cool older cousin.

Nathan Holbert:
You're being cool. Yeah.

Haeny Yoon:
Oh, nice.

Cassie Brownell:
And so I think I kept that CD then, so worse than my brother perhaps stealing from a child. I'm only a little bit older than Taylor Swift is, so I think I'm very much a millennial girl who grew up with her. And so it's like she's feeling 22 and I was feeling 25, but same vibes. And yeah, I think that my deep dive into Swiftie culture is not something that necessarily happened until I was like Eras Tour time.

Nathan Holbert:
Oh, interesting. So that was where it really took fire for you.

Cassie Brownell:
Yeah, I'm wearing a concert shirt.

Nathan Holbert:
I see that.

Cassie Brownell:
This is my second concert shirt. This is for when The Tortured Poets came out.

Nathan Holbert:
Okay.

Cassie Brownell:
But I have the shirt that it's from before this, which was gifted to me. And that's the first piece of Taylor Swift merch that I've ever owned. And the first piece was given to me.

Haeny Yoon:
And now do you have other things?

Cassie Brownell:
I have that sweatshirt that you're wearing.

Nathan Holbert:
I was going to say, you're also wearing Eras Tour.

Cassie Brownell:
Yeah. And so only stuff from the Eras Tour, but I don't own any of her physical albums as a CD or as vinyl.

Nathan Holbert:
Oh, really? You just stream them all.

Cassie Brownell:
No, streaming.

Nathan Holbert:
Such a millennial.

Cassie Brownell:
Such a millennial.

Nathan Holbert:
Haeny still is feeling 22, by the way.

Haeny Yoon:
Oh yeah, always. Always. I mean, I was thinking about how I could actually pinpoint when I became a Swiftie, like the turn that I've had. And so when she was feeling 15, I was feeling 28. And I remember I was sitting there in my office with my office mate, and I turned around to him and I'm like, "Oh my God, did you listen to this one album by this girl named Taylor Swift? She's 15." And this was after I was heartbroken and always sad all the time. And I'm like, "This girl gets me. This 15-year-old understands me." And I feel like ever since then, I feel like the, I might have matured [inaudible 00:21:12]-

Nathan Holbert:
Slowed you down a bit?

Haeny Yoon:
Yeah, because I was on a parallel track with her, and so I felt like her song spoke to me in that way.

Nathan Holbert:
I think that's good. I mean, this is-

Haeny Yoon:
And now I can't relate to her.

Nathan Holbert:
Oh, really?

Haeny Yoon:
At all.

Nathan Holbert:
Well, because-

Haeny Yoon:
No. Her songs are bops though.

Nathan Holbert:
But you do live the life of a showgirl. I'm surprised you don't.

Haeny Yoon:
Oh yeah. Oh, I forgot.

Nathan Holbert:
All those haters that are thinking about you all the time that you [inaudible 00:21:42]-

Haeny Yoon:
Oh, yeah. Always. They're always thinking about me. I don't know how I live with all this pressure.

Nathan Holbert:
That actually is... I mean, I've read a little bit since listening to the album, since going to the film about reviews of the album. That is kind of a consistent critique of this one, isn't it? Is that like it's not a thing that as many people can maybe relate to as some of her other work?

Cassie Brownell:
I mean, okay. So I was telling Haeny that I think it's a really interesting thing. I'm going to agree with Haeny that sometimes you have to let these things sit with you. But I'm also going to say, people have been like, "Well, I don't like her album." And I'm like, "Cool, not everybody has to like everything." You're wearing Star Wars, and I'll mention again that I still have never-

Nathan Holbert:
This is not Star Wars.

Cassie Brownell:
What is that? That looks a little like a little robot man-

Nathan Holbert:
My video game T-shirt.

Cassie Brownell:
Well-

Haeny Yoon:
It's a video game T-shirt.

Cassie Brownell:
To be clear, though, but I haven't seen Star Wars. It's just not for me, it's not my vibe. And I'm very happy for people who are into it, but it's not what I'm doing. But I think yeah, there's been a lot of critiques, but I also was sharing with Haeny that I was listening to this podcast that's called, "Are You Ready For It?" It's my second-favorite podcast.

Nathan Holbert:
It's another podcast?

Cassie Brownell:
[inaudible 00:22:55]-

Nathan Holbert:
I thought we were the only ones doing this.

Cassie Brownell:
But they are in Australia, and they had a live listening party with 400 people in a theater, and then they were ranking the songs as they were listening on first listen. And I think it's really interesting the ones that they think are really great are ones that people were trashing online in North America. And so the perception of how much of our critique of an album is perhaps related to the discourse of what we're around-

Haeny Yoon:
What's out there, yeah.

Cassie Brownell:
... and what other people are saying or how much we might be excited about it or accept it, if that's the vibe.

Nathan Holbert:
That's actually an advantage I have of being completely outside of the discourse.

Cassie Brownell:
Right.

Nathan Holbert:
So I can either just enjoy it or not.

Haeny Yoon:
Nathan's a secret Swiftie.

Nathan Holbert:
A secret. Yeah.

Haeny Yoon:
Not so secret anymore.

Nathan Holbert:
Underneath the video game shirt I have.

Cassie Brownell:
Sorry. I have no idea what it is.

Nathan Holbert:
But okay, but that brings us to an important point about the community, and then we're going to put that with in all caps and put a copyright after it. The Swiftie business is it's a thing, and when you fully take part in the thing, I'm gesturing at you with your merch on, and Haeny has multiple bits of merch here. It feels like a lot, and it feels like it might even be work at some point, right? What is it about this kind of experience that feels still playful to you? What do you get out of it?

Cassie Brownell:
Yeah, I think that I'm really sad I made you friendship bracelets. I think I left them at my office at work.

Nathan Holbert:
What? Oh, no friendship bracelets?

Cassie Brownell:
So I'm really sad, but I think the friendship bracelets are a thing that's mentioned in a song that gets picked up, and people make it into a thing. I guess Taylor Swift has been on interviews and been like, "Yes, some things are Easter eggs and some things are things that people take up." And the same thing, we were in, Haeny and I saw the show in Germany, and at that point during the Eras Tour, there's a part where people were having orange and yellow balloons and shining their lights to mimic what was happening on stage. And that's not something that Taylor Swift told people to do, but it's something that a couple people did and then it was on social media, and then it sort of grew. In the same way that my favorite, my heart home of New Orleans, they made a friendship bracelet to go around the stadium there, and then they passed it on, and it was at every stadium that followed like this giant outdoor friendship bracelet.

Nathan Holbert:
Wow.

Cassie Brownell:
So I think that there's people create play for themselves and choose what they want to partake in. And some people represent that by joining the crowd and being like, "Cool, I'm going to figure out what all these acronyms mean for her different songs." But another woman who was exchanging bracelets, we were exchanging bracelets, and instead of bracelets, she made paper rings, which is from a particular song. And she had said that she had spent hours making these paper rings to give people, but it was her own take on still participating in this playful thing of exchanging something.

Haeny Yoon:
I think that's the nice part about it is I feel like we've talked on the pod for six seasons now about play being this valuable thing because it's creative and innovative and imaginative, right? And there's emergent practices that come out of play. And I feel like when I look at Swifties, that's basically what's happening, right? You could not like it, you could hate her, she's not without her faults and problems and all of that, but I feel like there's these emergent play practices that come and not because someone told you that you have to do it this way, but because you have a community of people that can get together and be like, let's try to do this and then see what circulates and see what takes off, which is what we want to think about with play for kids in school too, right? We don't always want to direct every single thing that they do because sometimes that stops being play and starts to become work.

Cassie Brownell:
Sorry, I was going to say too, I think another thing that is really interesting to me, that is similar maybe to Star Wars, is the cosplaying and the costuming that happens. And I lived in New Orleans a long time, and when you live there, you're always working on and talking about what your next costume is for Halloween, for Mardi Gras, for midsummer Mardi Gras, you're always planning what do you need and where are you going to be getting it or how are you going to be making it? And I think that there's this expression of self that is really playful in a place like New Orleans and more consistently outwardly shown, where I think that when you go to the Eras Tour, she's a brand and her albums are branded in particular ways, and these different eras that she's been in, but her listeners have maybe been in. And so you can look at somebody dressed in gold and be like, "Oh, you're here for... What are you here for?"

Haeny Yoon:
Fearless.

Cassie Brownell:
Fearless, right?

Nathan Holbert:
Yeah. That's what I was going to say.

Cassie Brownell:
But I think that it allows people to outwardly show some of the things that they might internally feel in terms of how they feel connected to her. But because you're also dressed in the not a lot going on at the moment T-shirt, I can be like, "Oh my gosh, you're also into this. Let's talk about this." Or, "Oh, I like what you did with that, but..."

Haeny Yoon:
Yeah, yeah. A source of connection, like relational connection. And that goes back to our first question, right? Music is also about relational connections and the memories that you build with people around you.

Nathan Holbert:
Yeah. I mean, a consistent theme in this podcast is this notion of community and the core role that it plays with play. And you mentioned Star Wars, and you made the comparison. My first thought was Comic-Con. I just got back from Comic-Con a week or two ago, and yeah, there's not one way to do that costume. There's not one way to do Batman. There's not one way to be Spider-Man. There's not one way to be Wonder Woman. There's an infinite number of ways, and what's fun isn't just to see somebody dress up as Spider-Man, it's to see their take on it and their particular twist to it, and their ways of mashing it up with some anime that they're into or whatever else, right? That community piece makes the play that much more playful and you used the word emergence too, which I think is so core to this.

Cassie Brownell:
Yeah. And I was going to say, I think that this idea of Comic-Con or dressing in whatever way it's not limited to just Swifties and music, right?

Nathan Holbert:
Yeah, no, not at all.

Cassie Brownell:
It's as much as, okay, so for Renaissance versus the Cowboy Carter tour, people were dawning different kinds of clothes for that, to the Backstreet Boys were just playing at the Sphere and asked everyone to dress in white like in their Millennium album. And then you also have these other instances. So I went to, in the same year, I went to Shania Twain in Toronto. Shout out to Canada, but there's women dressed in like-

Nathan Holbert:
Shania Twain. Oh, wow.

Haeny Yoon:
Dressed like Shania?

Cassie Brownell:
They're dressed in the leopard print kind of stuff. I was wearing my cowboy boots.

Nathan Holbert:
That don't impress me much.

Cassie Brownell:
Yeah, right? But then I also saw Olivia Rodrigo that year, and there's also these young girls who are dressing with butterfly clips in lavender and in black and with skater kind of vibes. And it's this shared sense of, yeah, we can don these kinds of personas as well because we all contain multitudes.

Nathan Holbert:
Let's not forget the original kind of clothing illustrators of this, which was Kris Kross.

Cassie Brownell:
Yes. We love that.

Haeny Yoon:
Oh my God.

Nathan Holbert:
You remember Kris Kross?

Haeny Yoon:
Yes. We'll make you want to...

Cassie Brownell:
I would also say I went to the album museum this summer, and for me, the Life of the Showgirl also has some albo vibes, but I'm talking about all the costuming and stuff they did.

Nathan Holbert:
Isn't the producer Swedish or something?

Cassie Brownell:
And they recorded in Sweden.

Nathan Holbert:
Yeah. So that makes sense. That tracks. That tracks. Do you want to ask this final, just deep question there?

Haeny Yoon:
Oh, yeah, our final thing. Maybe this is a problem-

Nathan Holbert:
I feel like this needs to come from you, that's why I'm-

Haeny Yoon:
No, I feel like this is for all of us. So we've talked about the emergent practices. We talked about community. We talked about collective identity, connection that people can have to each other. So how do we want to apply this to our everyday lives? How can we make our lives more like Swifties?

Nathan Holbert:
What's the lesson?

Haeny Yoon:
What's the lesson here? Yeah, exactly.

Nathan Holbert:
Wow.

Haeny Yoon:
This is for everybody.

Cassie Brownell:
This is a little bit of a tougher one.

Nathan Holbert:
Yeah. So you guys both went on the Eras Tour together. You were in Germany, you're right there in the thick of it. Any lessons you drew from that specifically, or from all the other experiences you've gone to?

Cassie Brownell:
Well, as this is a play date. I have not myself been a child for a while, but I do think that when you schedule a play date as an adult or as a child, it's something to look forward to, and the concert was something to look forward to. There were ways to prepare. There were things that we could talk about that we wanted to do, but then there's things that are happenstance that you hope might happen. And there might be moments of disappointment. We had a lot of rain at that particular show, but it became a fun rain show at the same time. And I think that adults often don't have a lot of time for play. Sometimes we're eliminating that opportunity for kids in schools, or due to circumstances of politics, if they feel safe on the street or not. And so I think trying to figure out how we can create space for play, we know play will happen, but also ensuring that we take some time out for it, I think, is really helpful.

Haeny Yoon:
Yeah, totally. It's like play is organic at its best, but then we also don't want to make it intentional, too, right?

Nathan Holbert:
That's a tricky balance to walk. I think my lesson is that even things that may not be coded for me or might not seem like something I would be into, I can still celebrate that other people are really into them and finding joy. And I can also dip a toe in and see what's interesting or not, and then I can dip a toe out. But there's such a need for everyone to feel like they have to be haters all the time. And I think it's very good to not be a hater and to instead be somebody who celebrates what people like and what people are into. And we can do that in all sorts of different ways.

Haeny Yoon:
Yes. I feel like that's similar to the thing that I was thinking is I just think sometimes we like to stomp all over people's happiness because that seems like the fun thing to do. I don't know why. Yeah, but I feel like we shouldn't enjoy that other people are finding joy. And I think about, especially, school, we almost think that learning cannot happen if it's fun. F is like, it's an F word. And so I think, why not? Why don't we lean into the idea that things should be more fun, it should be more joyful, and that we shouldn't squash people's ability to enjoy things.

Nathan Holbert:
As my wife always says, "Don't yuck my yum."

Cassie Brownell:
Exactly.

Haeny Yoon:
Exactly.

Cassie Brownell:
Exactly.

Nathan Holbert:
Words to live by.

Cassie Brownell:
And I think too, even in school, thinking about music, right? If it's instrumental, sometimes you can play that in the background, and kids are still going to sing along to it or create space. I'm going to give a shout-out to John Wargo. He's very good at asking his students, "What song do you want to hear?" And playing different songs when the undergrads are walking into class that week. How can you use music to connect with other people, but expose people to other sorts of opportunities for play? Music can be a soundtrack as much as we can just sit and do it, listen to it. We can also be doing a lot of other things alongside of it.

Haeny Yoon:
Yeah.

Nathan Holbert:
I'll be your father figure.
I'll stop there.

Haeny Yoon:
We can't sing along because you started that song way too high.

Nathan Holbert:
Well, that's just my range, man.

Haeny Yoon:
Natural pitch.

Nathan Holbert:
It's my range.

Haeny Yoon:
It's my range.

Nathan Holbert:
Speaking of yums, we got to ask you, because it's Pop and Play episode. What is popping for you? In addition to Taylor Swift, and maybe it's just Taylor Smith, but what else are you into right now? What's cool?

Cassie Brownell:
What else is cool right now? Listen, this is a little bit old, but I really like Overcompensating as a show.

Haeny Yoon:
Oh, yeah. Great show.

Nathan Holbert:
I don't know this show.

Cassie Brownell:
I think it's really funny. I also said I'm a really big fan of High Potential, the show right now.

Haeny Yoon:
I have not watched that, but it seems like a good show, too.

Nathan Holbert:
I don't know either of these shows.

Cassie Brownell:
You're behind [inaudible 00:35:15]-

Nathan Holbert:
I'm so far behind.

Haeny Yoon:
But you're telling us a lot about your aesthetic, is you like humor, fun, funny things right now-

Cassie Brownell:
Yeah, I really like fun and funny things-

Haeny Yoon:
... at the moment that's what you want.

Cassie Brownell:
... as much as I love Criminal Minds I also-

Haeny Yoon:
You really want fun and funny at the moment.

Cassie Brownell:
... want fun and funny things.

Nathan Holbert:
Oh, man.

Cassie Brownell:
Yeah. And also I was sharing last night that I started watching Veep for the first time ever.

Nathan Holbert:
Oh, yes.

Haeny Yoon:
So good.

Cassie Brownell:
As well as the West Wing.

Nathan Holbert:
So good.

Cassie Brownell:
So I'm also very, very late-

Nathan Holbert:
That's a very interesting contrast.

Cassie Brownell:
Very late to the game but yeah.

Nathan Holbert:
I rewatched Veep not too long ago, and the only problem with Veep is they keep manifesting things in the world. They do something absurd in the show-

Cassie Brownell:
That's what I've heard.

Nathan Holbert:
... and it's like, "Oh no, that is now real."

Cassie Brownell:
Exactly.

Nathan Holbert:
Great. Excellent recommendations. Excellent insight into not just the mind of Taylor Swift, but also the broader cultural movement that is Swifties.

Cassie Brownell:
Are you going to continue listening to Taylor Swift?

Nathan Holbert:
I will happily bop along whenever it comes on. It probably won't be in a regular rotation for me, but I enjoyed. I mean, I had fun with this album and Haeny, last year or something, sent me, I said, "Hey, send me a..." I said, "I don't know much about Taylor Swift. Send me a few songs." She sent me a playlist of 107 songs.

Cassie Brownell:
That makes sense. That makes sense.

Nathan Holbert:
So there were like one or two on that that I liked as well.

Haeny Yoon:
And you didn't like any of the country songs.

Nathan Holbert:
I didn't care for those.

Cassie Brownell:
They just weren't Christian enough for you, I guess.

Nathan Holbert:
That's right. Amen. Amen.

Haeny Yoon:
Okay. Well, thanks for joining us, Cassie.

Cassie Brownell:
Thank you for having me.

Haeny Yoon:
Yeah, it was really a fun conversation. Thank you for being on our inaugural first play date of season six.

Cassie Brownell:
Oh my gosh.

Nathan Holbert:
So exciting.

Cassie Brownell:
What a pleasure.

Nathan Holbert:
Yeah. The pleasure was all ours. For the listeners over there, I hope you had a chance to play along with us, and we'll also try to take some opportunities to engage in a conversation online about these things. Feel free to... What do we do now? We don't tweet. We Instagram at each other. Is there a verb for that?

Haeny Yoon:
DMing.

Nathan Holbert:
Don't DM me.

Haeny Yoon:
Don't DM us. We will not answer you because we don't know how to do that.

Nathan Holbert:
But we may try to have some kind of online dialogue about this stuff, and it'd be great to have you take part in that. We'll let you know whenever that happens, and we'll be back in a few weeks for the next pop off and our next play date coming up.

Haeny Yoon:
Woo-woo.

Nathan Holbert:
Yeah. All right. Thanks for being here. Bye.

Haeny Yoon:
Bye.