Episode 5: Future Dreaming with Ebony Elizabeth Thomas and Oluwaseun Animashaun

• Check out Ebony's book The Dark Fantastic to read up on many of the discussions from the episode
• Find out more about Nnedi Okorafor and her many publications https://nnedi.com/
• If you would like to hear more about Jade Bentil's comments on "Wakandafication" check out her work at https://www.jadebentil.com/
• Read more about Michelle M. Wright's the door of no return in Becoming Black: Creating Identity in the African Diaspora
• Want to check out the other authors from Olu's class: Saidiya Hartman and Christina Sharpe 
• You can find what's Poppin for Lalitha in Jerry Craft's graphic novels 
• Want to keep up to date with Ebony's thought on Star Trek @EbWatchesTrek
• See more on Kwame Mbalia's series Tristan Strong Punches a Hole in the Sky and more
• Follow up on the Y.A. imprint with Rick Riordan and Daniel José Older coming up
• Find where to get a copy of Tracy Deonn's award-winning Legendborn 

Haeny: This week on Pop and Play we talked with Dr. Ebony Elizabeth Thomas and Olu Animashaun about the intersection of race, pop culture, and social imagination through writing and media. Ebony is a professor of Literacy, Culture, and International Education at the University of Pennsylvania Graduate School of Education. She is among, many other things, author of The Dark Fantastic: Race and the Imagination from Harry Potter to The Hunger Garmes. Olu is a doctoral student in the department of Curriculum and Teaching at Teachers College. Her work is about the possibilities of play, fantasy, and literacy in the narrative and stories of Black girls. Notably, she is a middle school teacher, and therefore, by default, the coolest of us all. We loved talking with them about their work in speculative fiction as a way of imagining new futures, ultimately with the goal of remaking the world and its unjust conditions. We couldn’t think of a better duo who made us wonder, ask new questions, and develop our own curiosities. And isn’t this what this whole season was about? The potential of play to awaken our curiosities, to imagine different kinds of possibilities and worlds, and to provoke new questions and thoughts.

As you’ll hear, Nathan wasn’t able to join us this episode--he was actually playing with his kids during their spring break. And of course, we always excuse, condone, and support this at all times! But don’t worry, we got our Episode 1 host Lalitha Vasudevan back instead!

[Playful music fades in under end of last sentence, fades lower as Haeny begins talking, then fades out.]

Haeny: Hi everybody, this is Haeny. Unfortunately, Nathan is not here today. But in his own words, he says we get a co-host upgrade in Lalitha.

Lalitha: Hi Haeny. I am saying hi. And I don't know about that assessment, but I'll try to live up to it.

Haeny: I'm sure you will. [Lalitha laughs] And then we have Olu Animashaun, and she is a doctoral student, do you want to say hi?

Olu: hello.

Haeny: And then Ebony Elizabeth Thomas.

Ebony: Hello.

Lalitha: And those two will be our guests today as we talk about speculative fiction play and creative reimagining. So, I thought I would start off this way, because I think when I think of all three of you, I think of you all as disruptors, and people who kind of think outside of the box and help me to reimagine academic space, to reimagine my own work. And one of our last podcast episodes that we had with John Jackson, Dean of the Annenberg School at UPenn, we talked about multimodal scholarship. And one of the things that he said that really stuck with me is that it's not that multimodal scholarship is the future of academia, cause it's already here, right, and it's a matter of whether or not we want to participate, contribute, get on board. And I really liked that framing of it. And so I was hoping that you could just say a little bit about your work and what you're working on now. And perhaps what you're excited about, as you look into the next couple of years.

Ebony: I am sort of an accidental, expert in multimodality because I set out to first write children's and young adult books that had a speculative bent. And then when those doors were barred in publishing, because at the time, you were writing black children's books, or you were writing speculative fiction, and when I started graduate school, I spent five years working in linguistics and discourse analysis. And then finally, when I got my job at Penn, I was able to propose the Dark Fantastic as a project that could be part of my tenure and promotion to associate professor package, so to speak. So, along the way, most of what I have done has not really been academic work. So, I am a known quantity in children's publishing, and increasingly in science fiction and fantasy publishing, and in those worlds, but really, my home base is children's literature. Both the publishing industry and critics and scholars. I've had to build that connection organically, because there were very few places in the academy to train in those fields, and certainly not at research institutions, most research institutions. And so it has been quite a journey over the past two decades, to build and to form a career where I’m thinking about not just children's books, but about media about youth and young adulthood and fan cultures. And you know, just thinking about how stories for children of color, especially black children, exist, and following the track of those stories, wherever they show up across modes, so in you know, books, in, you know, comics, fan cultures, television shows, films, etc, etc. So, it has really been an accidental journey. And I, I'm really thankful for the serendipity of it all, because I really did stumble into a lot of my work through wanting to do other things.

Haeny: I mean, that accidental journey is so motivating for especially up and coming and new scholars. right to see a model or example of someone who is highly regarded for their intellect and scholarship and, you know regarded highly because of all the ways that you've been able to merge some of the things that are your passions that have been lifelong, right. So I think that's such a good model and example for us. Olu?

Olu: Oo, I mean, like, I have goosebumps now. [Haeny laughs] I'm like, fan-girling so hard being in the company, [Haeny and Olu laugh] of all of you right now. I'm just so overwhelmed. Exactly what Haeny, what you just said is just so spot on. I think I've been incredibly blessed to be an Emerging Scholar in this particular moment where speculative fiction feels like something that is possible to talk about in the Academy and not feel like such an outsider and an outcast. I think we still have a way to go in many places, but I am so excited that I have people that I can look up to and say that like, you know, they've done this work and here's how I came to continue to like build and reimagine for myself what this could look like for me. Getting to thinking about speculative fiction started off with my mother, actually. So my parents are Nigerian immigrants. And so one of the things that my mom did wasn't reading books, it was orating stories, when we were going to bed. And so it would be like, stories about the gods; it would be stories about Dog and Turtle. And so for many years, that was my real flesh and blood connection to Nigeria; I wouldn't be able to visit for many, many years. And so it was like in those stories that I was rooted to the possibility of Nigeria, to my connection to Nigeria, outside of like, my parents, histories, and, of course, my bloodline. But, of course, I moved, went to college, and that, that connection fades. And so for me, the question then became like, what does it mean to be Nigerian? If I don't have these stories as present as I used to? What does it mean, when my parents aren't close anymore? My like faith based communities, which were also my, like, Nigerian based communities too, aren't present. And, the answer became speculative fiction. again. When I think about the possibilities of speculative fiction, I think about the ability for it to like, connect these like indigenous histories and like, also, like, make them feel lived and present and in the future. And so that's what I'm really excited to see, like moving forward.

Lalitha: I feel like if our colleague Nathan was here, he would have really resonated, Olu, with what you just said, especially about afrofuturism as a way of thinking about design, and sort of designing futures and sort of allowing the conditions that support the catalyzation of that design.

Olu: Mmhmm.

Lalitha: So just to, just to kind of embody a little bit of Nathan's [Olu and Lalitha laugh] spirit and ethos here, I think he would have really appreciated that.

Haeny: So, in Pop and Play, what we usually try to do is we usually try to start by playing some kind of game. So the game that we're gonna play with you all, is a sort of a merging of speculative fiction and the game that everybody probably knows, which is would you rather, okay, so I'm going to give you some scenarios of would you rather and you have to answer which one you would pick. We're going to start with the first question, which is, would you rather be trapped in Narnia or Hogwarts forever?

Ebony: I would want to be trapped in Narnia, easily I mean, I don't trust Hogwarts and the wizarding world [Haeny laughing] And I’ve written fanfiction there, I spent a lot of imaginative time there before recent years and events. Narnia, I mean, I could be a queen forever somewhere [Haeny laughs] in Narnia you know, after the last battle and I don't trust Hogwarts like that, especially because Hogwarts [Olu laughs] is more tied to our human world are imperfect world.

Haeny: Mhhm. 

Ebony: and I'm thinking about Hogwarts in the 2020s I mean, we don't have as much information about that. So yeah, definitely. Narnia. [Olu and Haeny laugh]

Haeny: I love that.

Lalitha: Oh, You just you just added like a really interesting temporal dimension to this because Hogwarts in 2020, 2021 feels complicated. Hogwarts in like maybe 1952, also complicated but for different reasons. [Haeny laughs]

Olu: Mmm.

Lalitha: So like, who, I don't know how to answer that question. Cause then I, because now you're making me think what like not just would where would I rather be trapped but it depends on who I am. Right? Like, could I be a  Patronus in Hogwarts? Sure. [Haeny laughs] Keep me there. Bring me when you need me.

Ebony: Right.

Laltitha: Right like I'll be reading in the corner otherwise, but if you need me here I am. But a muggle or like a, yeah, I don't know. [Haeny and Olu laugh] I don't know you're messing with my brain a little bit, Ebony. 

Ebony:  Yeah, I wouldn't want to be a muggle or witch [Haeny and Olu laugh] in Hogwarts. Like right now.

Olu:  You know, I was like definitively Hogwarts and now I am like, ah. [laughs] Maybe I chose wrong I chose wrong. [all laugh]

Ebony:  There are no right or wrong answers.

Olu:  I feel like, no I chose wrong. I would do Narnia with like Queen Ebony. Absolutely. I also kinda want to be the Whomping Willow. [gasps and laughter] That's what I would do, if I if that was my choice. [all laugh]

Ebony:  That's a really good one.

Haeny:  Oh, my gosh. Oh my god. Okay, so the answers are making this go really well. So the next question. I'm going to shift a little bit. So would you rather have the force, but have to be roommates with C-3PO [Lalitha laughs] for the rest of your life, or be able to time travel but only backward?

Ebony: Hmm.

Haeny: Lots of contemplation here. [laughs]

Lalitha:  Yeah.

Haeny:  Annoying roommates are not popular. I guess.

Olu:  [laughs] I would, I would travel backwards. I would time travel backwards, but I also think it's because, like place unlimited right, so I could like time travel backwards to like Jupiter in like 10,000 BC. Right. And then you know, just different places to go. It doesn't just have to be bound to this earth. Yeah.

Haeny: Nice.

Lalitha:  Yeah, what Olu said [Olu, Haeny and Lalitha laugh.]

Ebony:  I am going to go the unconventional route and be roommates with C-3PO, and I am going to keep up with the force. Don't stop. Don't stop till you get enough. [Lalitha, Olu and Haeny laugh] I'm going to go with the force because the force is awesome. And I can annoy C-3PO. [Lalitha, Olu and Haeny laugh] I have, I am the annoying roommate. Like I have that personality. I grew up sharing a room with both my little sisters, because we grew up in a two bedroom house. And that's why we're annoyingly close today. So I think I can hold my own with a droid. [Haeny and Olu laugh]

Lalitha:  That's a good strategy; out annoy the annoying.

Haeny:  Okay, Would you rather be invited into the house of vampires or zombies? [Olu laughs]

Ebony:  Oh, Easy. Easy. Vampires. I don't do zombies. [Lalitha, Olu and Haeny laugh]

Olu:  [Laughs] They’re both undead. Wait!

Ebony:  I know. I know. I don't do- vampires are sexy. Zombies are creepy. [Lalitha, Olu and Haeny laugh]

Olu:  I would do zombies. Because I think there might be like the key to immortality there. [Haeny: mmm] [Lalitha laughs] Maybe like a biological something that we can find there.

Lalitha:  So interesting.

Olu: I guess the same could be said for vampires too. But I, I, I just like, I don't know, the, the peril and the desire thing together. I just don't want to be in danger. While I'm like falling in love, that just feels like a lot. [laughter] If Bella has taught me anything from Twilight like, it's just too much. I don't want it. So umm, I just going to do that.

Haeny: Ohhh, my god. I’m dying. I mean, thank you so much for answering all these questions and playing this game that was really, really fun. I actually found out a lot about the three of you. Just by asking these questions. [laughter] Having both of you here, we should definitely spend time talking about afrofuturism and speculative fiction. You know, Ebony you talk a lot about, about this in your own work about myth making and the imaginative and restoring and retelling, through fiction, through art, through creative works, and how we can reimagine, especially systems for Communities of Color, right, where their stories are not there. One of the things that we've said throughout our podcast is that play doesn't always have to be exactly what we imagine it to be as like a lot of kids just jumping up and down and having the time of their lives and giggling, right, that play can also be really intellectual and serious work. And the thing about play is that it comes with a range of affective emotions, right, and some of it can be truly joyful. Right? Whereas some of it can be truly disturbing. And then a lot of times, it's actually both of those things at the same time. Right, so, so if you could talk about the role of speculative fiction, particularly afrofuturism, and the work of play as it intersects with how you reimagine.

Ebony: So, play, and afrofuturism. So first of all, I titled the book and my theory, The Dark Fantastic because I wanted to separate out my consideration of racism, in western speculative fiction from what I saw as the afrofuturistic movement in the arts, you know, across genre and mode, and Afrofuturism as an aesthetic. And then recently, I've been listening to and thinking through African, you know, people working on the continent, in speculative fiction and first and second generation African immigrants who are also Black American, but who have direct lineage to the continent critiquing Black Atlantic remembrances of Africa, because my ancestry is at least 7 to 10 or more generations back, and it was amalgamated. So when I spit in a cup, the whole of Western Central Africa lit up, which is not helpful.

Haeny: Mmmm.

Ebony: So it is a kind of lineage that you can't disentangle. And that has been remembered and mis-remembered and partially remembered, um, you know, for centuries. Like, so it's not something new where people who were part of the transatlantic slave trade, longed for or tried to remember or conjure up the African continent wherever their ancestors came from, but because of the brutality of the slave trade, because of the fact that people weren't allowed to select partners, or spouses from the same, you know, traditions, we ended up being a amalg-, you know, like, just, and so we have the phenomenon of Wakandafication, Zamundafication. I'm starting to see a rift between those who are advocating for African futurism including Nnedi Okorafor-

Olu:  Mmhmm.

Ebony:  -and people who are, you know, not liking that because they feel as if it is a rejection on the part of African creatives. So, I always feel like politics complicates our play. So I would like to play, you know, one of my favorite characters is an African who was played by an African American, Lieutenant Uhura of Star Trek. So she was played by Nichelle Nichols-

Olu: mmhmm

Ebony: -who is Black American like I am, but you know, one of the things that Trek has never done and I could go on and on about Trek, I will not make this a Trek ca- podcast [Olu laughs] because I was out about the Harry Potter fandom because I couldn't tell people how much I loved [wispers] Star Trek. [Lalitha laughs] Because, you know, if you're a Trekkie as a generation X-er, that was the kiss of death, you wouldn't have any friends , nobody would date you. [Olu, Haeny and Lalitha laugh] It was just, Olu seriously, my generation says, look Lalitha is nodding-

Lalitha: I hear you.

Ebony: like you just didn't do it. So anyway, what I want you to say is that, now that we have, I believe Nigerian-American producers and writers on the new shows, I’m hoping that finally with Strange New Worlds, we can get more of Uhura's Kenyan background like what you know, who are her people within Kenya? Is she Luo like Obama? Is she you know, like, what customs would she have in the 23rd century? So I'm really keenly interested in thinking about how politics, how nationality, and how deep remembrances, which is, I think, a theme we're starting to draw out here. You know, rememberance near and far, how that influences our play these days. So that's where I am right now. I mean, I can talk about Dark Fantastic, but where my work is now is thinking about Afrofuturism versus African futurism. And maybe it's not a versus maybe it's an and maybe it's a both-and, we want it all.

Lalitha:  Mmhmm. Can I, I have a question. And it's sort of it was something I was gonna ask later, but it ties into what you were just saying now. And I really love and wrestle with this idea that you put out there, which I think is exactly right. Like, politics complicates our play, right. And I'm thinking, also of sort of how the market, like what's the cause and effect of the market and audience interest? And sort of what people have an appetite for? And what shapes that, but also, how does that shape what is possible. And so, really exciting to think about who is at the helm of these shows that have an iconic legacy, and also how they got there and where it leads to. So I wondered if you wanted to, if either of you, because you kind of both of you are thinking about this--can you say a little bit about sort of how you think about that tension of market audience and the media creation itself? Or the pop culture kinds of artifacts that are out there?

Olu:  That's such a great question, Lalitha. Something I've been thinking about recently, is language practices, in particular books. And so one of the things that I, I think made me feel at home with Nnedi Okorafor was just how much, how many African languages are present in her book. Like I see, Yoruba; I see Ebo I see--like scripts that haven't existed in so long, are like in her book, and the same with, I'm currently reading a book called Rosewater, the Rosewater series, which is amazing, and I highly recommend, but that too, also has like lots of Yoruba in it. And it always makes me feel like home. And so one of the things that I've been thinking about a lot is like, just in the pop culture artifacts, like how we sound in different places. What does it look like to show up as an African I, one of my parents favorite movies, oddly enough, is Coming to America.

Ebony: hmm.

Olu:  I know they love it. And I was like, I feel like that's like the one film that I've actually seen, like, Black Americans and like African Americans, like, not be mad [laughs] at together [Ebony and Haeny laugh]. I feel like it's like a very odd like, this does that work well for either of us. But yet somehow [Ebony laughs] we've made it work and like laugh at it together. But even with, like the ways that Africans show up in that text in that film it doesn't make sense, right? Like not all us are princes. Not all of us have this immense wealth. Not all of us have all this kind of access. But yeah, I think in terms of thinking about, well, how we show up. So much of it feels oddly speculative in the, in a different direction, in a not true direction. Not rooted in any authenticity. I don’t even think that answers your question. But starting to somewhere. [laughs]

Ebony:  I just think that, you know, this does tie into the theme of your podcast play, because I'm thinking about this idea. Like, Jade Bentil, who's Black British, I believe that I can't remember where her parents are from. But she grew up in the UK, she coined the term Wakandafication. So one of the things that happened, when Black Panther was released, is that Black Americans and other Black folks who again, don't have direct, you know, and I shouldn't, you know, I'm using that word for the lack of a better term, because certainly our ancestors, you know, came over long ago, but we don't have specific ties to current nations, ethnic groups, etc., Were wearing African garb to the opening of Black Panther.

Olu: Mmmhmm. [Short laugh]

Ebony: And it was pretty contested. And so I do think that there is, I am trying to be tender and soft. And listen to the fact that when we did that, and other, you know, there were folks who were in school with us, who were made fun of, for the clothes who were, you know, the foods, you know, and yeah, so I get that it is super complicated. I just definitely think we need to listen, like when people say, my culture is not cosplay. I think that that is something that is super complicated. And we really do need to work through it and listen to folks who are saying, you know, listen, this needs to be done more thoughtfully. One of the things I just really wanted to think through is the way that rich white cis-het male producers, which is no one on this call, because it's like Hollywood, Disney--

Olu: Mmhmm

Ebony: --and some very highly connected

Lalitha: Mmm

Ebony: --Black US capitalist artists

Haeny: mmm

Ebony: --are really driving some of the divide. So like, you know, the decisions made, for Wakanda in Black Panther [Olu: mmhmm], Wakanda does not come out of the Black American imagination, it comes out of the imagination of Marvel. [Olu: Mmhmm] Black is king [Olu: Mmhmm] is rooted in the Lion King, which even at the time, some of us were like, okay, we finally have a Disney movie set in Africa. But it is like where in Africa? That's a continent even bigger than North America, and two, how come there are no humans, when you finally have a movie. So Black is king was rooted in, you know, Disney. So I'm thinking about the motives of Disney, Marvel, Warner Brothers, and sort of the ways in which white supremacy has shaped or intervened, in these sort of twisted remembrances. And so I've just been trying to think about how complicated the question is. I do want to extend tenderness to my own folks. And, you know, for this longing for somewhere that isn't the US, longing for something that isn't, you know, a white dominated society where we've been on the edge. But I do think as we strive to go back and deal with the problem of return, which, listen, some of my friends said, isn't a problem, you know, but Michelle M. Wright talks about this problem of going back through the door of no return and trying to remember what was there before, I do think it's important for us to research, for us to talk to living breathing actual folks who are on the continent, and who have direct ties in order to do ethical, Afrofuturist or African-futurist work, and that's, I know, I'm kind of the cheese that stands in the middle of these debates. [Haeny laughs]

Olu:  Mmm. No that’s such an interesting question, though, cause I definitely went with friends who did dress up in African garb, and I was like, Where'd you get that? [Ebony and Haeny laugh] because my mom, tailored this one should be like wait, where you got that, but um, something that I've been, like, forced to think about on the other end is how tender I can be when people are like trying to build something up, build up this like African identity. But I also think it's just really interesting to think about, you know, colonization too, and what it looks like for Africans to try to remember themselves. And I think that's just something that I've been having a lot of conversation with my parents about because they, mmm they'll be okay. [Haeny laughs] I was like, they were on the cusp of decolonization. And so they've seen both worlds, right. And so for them, it's it's also a process of learning for them too, or relearning. And I think that also needs to be acknowledged somewhere in the conversation as well. And I feel like that often gets buried. The, the thing that we're trying to remember it's also been lost on the continent to some degree, and we're all trying to figure out how we go forward.

Ebony:  Oh, I got goosebumps.

Haeny: I think another thing is that, I just think about how complex the work is. Because when we think about speculative fiction, I would say that, right now it is having a moment, right? Like, where it's popularized in the larger landscape, people are really getting on it. And everybody's realizing, in the midst of, you know, racial reckoning that we have to put, we have to make this visible, right. And I think part of that is missing the conversation that you both are bringing in, right, that it's also so tied to identity; it's so tied to land; it's so tied to your linguistic practices, right, your creativity, imagination, and how much of that conversation is not happening when we appreciate right black art or appreciate speculative fiction or appreciate the kinds of writing that you're talking about here.

Lalitha:  And it's, it's, it's helping, I think, to necessarily decenter, who's the audience for these moments and movements, I was thinking about a, I think I either heard or saw a talk that you gave Ebony. And where you were trying to kind of distinguish between are we in a moment? Are we in a movement, and that just really stayed with me. If the audience is always singular, or it doesn't reflect the people about whom this work is happening, and it doesn't engage them in the production. You know, just to use your framing, does the moment have the possibility of becoming movement? Does movement have the possibility of engaging in lasting change? Y'all that's just quoting Ebony, I think each of you is positioned in places and institutions that are trying to pull the levers of change in different kinds of way. As you've been thinking about the kinds of, you know, work, either that you've been producing yourself or that you've been engaging with, where do you see some of those levers of of kind of shifting movements, moments to movements, movements to change?

Ebony:  Well, for me, one of the things that I have delighted in is over the past five to seven years, Black science fiction, fantasy, horror, and comics, going from the margins, going from the realm of independent creators who just couldn't break through, to the center of the culture. I do think that this success of Black Panther within the larger narrative arc of the Marvel Cinematic Universe was a watershed moment. So in anticipation of that, we had lots of work greenlit. So, but, I also want to acknowledge that Black Panther didn't birth, Black speculation [Olu: mmhmm] anywhere on the planet, right. [Lalitha: Mmhmm] So we have always dreamed of the Afrofuture; [Olu, Lalitha and Haeny: mmm] we have always dreamed of the Afrofuture.  And so but in the past five to seven years, when the Dark Fantastic came out, it was the year after Black Panther. And people thought, like, we always think, especially here in the United States, because of the American Dream myth, that there was no need for my book. So I was never really worried about it. So I don't even deal with Black Panther in the Dark Fantastic because the period of writing it was between 2012 and 2016. And if there's one thing I know about race in the United States is that it is a many splendored thing that has existed since before the inception of the country, for which my folks were, you know, like we were here for the founding, right? And so I know it was going to take another few centuries for us to sort it out. Not because I want it to be that way. Goodness knows I'm ready for Starfleet. I always like [laughing] dreaming and Starfleet, [Haeny and Olu laugh] When can I get to Jupiter Station and then you know, Vulcan and then Andoria.

Olu: Yes.

Ebony: Okay, so anyway, yeah, like that's where my brain is, if I'm not profesoring,

Lalitha:  Mmhm.

Ebony:  [Olu and Haeny laugh] But since we know that's not the case. Like that's not our future trajectory, looking at where we are, then I think the the challenge here is to think about how we then can sort through the detritus of the present, and what we have all inherited, you know, each one of us, and how we can sort through it so that then we can spin out a better trajectory for those who are coming after us. Cause certainly, you know, when young people wear the T-shirts, I have my ancestors wildest dreams, people think they're being obnoxious, but no, not really, they're actually signaling towards something super important.

Olu:  Mmmm.

Ebony: that someone in the past had to conceive of our present. [Olu: mmm] And so one of the things that we've been doing is I hold, you know, pushing toward a world where we are dreaming toward the future. You know, I always say, in our work in children's literature criticism, people kind of poopoo what I do sometimes, because they're ’s like, Oh, she thinks about children's books. But you know, what we choose right now, as far as children's books and media is concerned, will have an effect, in the mid 22nd century. We are still talking about Alice in Wonderland, published in the 1860s. Little Women, also published in you know, during that period, Anne of Green Gables is one of my favorite stories that's 120 years old, and counting. [Lalitha: Mmhmm] So, what we do now, the seeds we plant now, and the ways in which we have kids play, which is the theme of your podcast. You know, we I mean-- It's just; this is future dreaming. It's not something that's pie in the sky, we ev- day by day, we are creating the landscapes of the future.

Lalitha:  That's a really beautiful image.

Haeny:  That's like such an important point. Yeah. [Lalitha: mmhmm] [Haeny laughs] As you say, as you say that, too, it just sounds so obvious after you said it; like yeah, this is kind of creating the landscape for the future. But it's another thing to have someone actually point it out and think about that in terms of how we even arrived at the present canon, right, and, and how we arrived here. Yeah-

Ebony:  It's so hard to get rid of those canons once they form. And once we, which is what I'm arguing about Harry Potter, like we are deciding whether or not I mean, the ship has kind of sailed because it was so pervasive with millennials, but we really are choosing whether or not people have to deal with, you know, whatever problems are with it, in 2100, because the kids of today are still going to be, they're going to be the grandparents of 2100.

Lalitha: I love the, I love the invitation to consider these moments as seeds of, you know, 200 years from now. [Olu: mmhmm; Haeny: hmm] Which is, yeah, which I think helps us get out of ourselves a little bit and, and maybe even advances the the necess- the necessity of of playing in this way, right that it isn't trivial or extra, but it's essential and necessary.

Olu: Mmhmm. I mean, I was thinking about how syllabi has changed over the last couple years for the academy for just being a grad student, just like the change I've seen between like, my first year, and my present year, like who gets to be a part of the classroom like, now I see I literally was assigned your book not only a couple weeks ago. And it was great cuz I already read it. So I was like, Yes, I know what I'm doing. [Haeny laughs] But then also seeing like Saidiya Hartman seeing Sharpe right, I think those, seeing those scholars come to the forefront, seeing those scholars come to the center allow a place for like future dreaming that I don't think was present before. And I think I'm excited for that kind of edge of speculation to be present in the academy. I'm excited for that to be something that gets to be honored. I'm really excited for the way that that can change paradigms in the ways that we approach our research, in the ways that we not only watch our participants for the ways that we just think about our theories and our ways and ontologies of our students and our participants. So I think I'm thinking a lot about that, like what does it mean for me as like a current grad student to be able to speculate. The ways that I do my research the ways that I can move forward.

Haeny:  So, as you know, we got through one question, which is amazing, [all laugh] it's like a world record. But, it was a great conversation and the you know, the title of this podcast is Pop and Play, and at the end, so we start with an act of play. And at the end, we end with what's Poppin. And I'm sure all the gen-Zers and everybody are like, you guys are such nerds. It's a Trekkie thing, right? [all laughing] where people are like, What are you saying? What does it mean, right? So what we're trying to do without dating ourselves is to end with something happening in the pop culture and landscape that you're currently engaging with that you're excited about. It could be something that you're watching something that you're listening to reading; it could be a meme that you saw, it could be any of those things. So what's Poppin for you in the pop culture landscape? Lalitha? [Haeny laughs]

Lalitha:  Ah, man, why ‘ you always making me go first. Well, I have an answer ready. So there you go. Last year, I read an awesome graphic novel called New Kid, which I absolutely loved and just devoured. And I read it like several times in a row. And I just got Class Act, which is the follow up by Jerry Craft to new kid. And I've just started it and I had to slow myself down because I could have just read it all at once. It's an, it's I just love the way he tells stories. I love the intentional way he weaves in so much so much in like a single cell of this graphic novel. So it's making me really happy and that is what's poppin for me. Class Act. Jerry Craft.

Haeny:  Thank you.

Lalitha:  How about you Ebony? [laughs]

Ebony:  Well, how long have you got? [all laugh] So there are- I will restrict it to just three things. So over on my EbWatchesTrek Twitter, I have been celebrating the Star Trek universe; just because you know, everybody keeps counting out my favorite science fiction televised series. But, you know, we had a wonderful revival last year Star Trek gave us at the height of the pandemic 33 new episodes across three different series. It, they have an incredible creative team. They have Black, Indigenous, People of Color, we got LGBTQ representation. You know, I have my critiques, but they are just incredible. So I created a hashtag to celebrate Trek Black History Month. It's #trekbhm. And so we are just celebrate and yesterday, Trondy Newman, who plays ensign Beckett Mariner on the animated series Lower Decks gave me a shout out so, [Haeny, Olu and Lalitha laugh] you can't tell me anything today. So that was number one. Number two is that Rick Riordan presents from Disney publishing is finally going to, after the success of Sal and Gabby Break the Universe, Tristan Strong Punches a Hole in the Sky--shout out to Kwame Mbalia and all that series for middle grades readers--They are officially starting a Y.A. imprint. And they just announced the author of the shadow shaper trilogy. Daniel Jose Older is going to be writing a series there. I know Olu, I know.

Olu:  [whispers] nice [laughs]

Ebony:  And so they're gonna be highlighting. And then I mean, this is the era and the age of Black girl fantasy and science fiction from the major publishers. After knocking on their doors for decades and decades.

Haeny:  Mmhmm.

Ebony:  We're getting some amazing people and so shout out to Tracy Deonn, who was the very first fantasy author to ever win a Coretta Scott King award for the best new talent. [Haeny: Mmm] The Steptoe Award. Legendborn is a retelling of Arthurian legend that puts a Black girl from North Carolina in the center. And Tracy is a brilliant storyteller. I just, I love and support all my millennial and Generation Z author friends, they are doing the darn thing. Okay. [Haeny laughs] And so that is what I am loving. It is like I had to wait until I was in my 40s to get to this era. [Olu: mmm]

Lalitha:  Right.

Ebony:  But truly this is an Afrofuturistic, African futuristic Renaissance and I am loving it.

Lalitha:  Yes. Yes.

Haeny: Well everybody now know who to call if they need to hype person. [laughter]

Lalitha:  Yes!

Ebony:  Hello. Listen, listen, I'm still trying to get on the set, a Star Trek before I die. [Haeny, Olu and Lalitha laughing] I am going to be; I want a walk-on ensign role that is like the ultimate Trekkie Trekker. Like, I want a walk-on.

Lalitha:  Alright, any producers listening. [Haeny and Olu laugh] That's Ebony Elizabeth Thomas; she's at UPenn. She would like a walk-on role. I think we're gonna make it happen Ebony. [Haeny: Uh huh] We're gonna work on it for you.

Haeny: Yeah. EbWatchesTrek Twitter.

Lalitha: Come on.

Haeny: which I can tell Olu had just subscribed to [Lalitha and Ebony laugh]

Olu:  I did. I did. You know I have my priorities.

Haeny:  I could tell I could tell by watching her and like, I know what she's doing right now. [laughter]

Lalitha:  Nice. I feel like we just got some breaking information here. This is awesome.

Haeny:  Yeah.

Lalitha:  We're going to have to release this first.

Haeny:  Yeah. [Lalitha and Olu laugh] Olu how about you?

Olu:  um, WandaVision, WandaVision is what's trending for me right now. That's what's Popping it's that it's also like, Marvel TikTok, that's just the hole I've been in right now, with the amount of analysis like they're teaching me how to be a better researcher, because whoo, [someone whispers: yes] the Deep Dive, the connections, but just the media ecology that they're working in. It's amazing. So that's, that's the was where I'm living right now. That's what's happening. [laughs]

Lalitha:  I love it, I love it.

Haeny:  I gotta get on that. One thing I'm excited to do is on Monday, I bought like virtual screening tickets to Minari, which is the Steven Yeun, you know, the movie, or Ma-nari as the Americans say. [Haeny and Olu laugh] But, um, but I'm really excited about that. And I think it just struck me that I just haven't read or seen a story about me, right. [Olu: mmhmm] And I think because I've been a big fan of Steven Yeun. Like, I watched The Walking Dead and I love Walking Dead still. And I know nobody's watching that still. But I am. [laughs] But yeah, I think the idea of like a Korean immigrant family and, and living in a rural area. I think that is such a new kind of story and perspective for me, that isn't the same as mine. But I'm excited to see what the connections of that is. And I think it gets us towards what we've all talked about with narrative plenitude, right? Just seeing more stories of ourselves out there that are different kinds of stories. So I'm very, very excited about that.

Ebony:  I was just gonna say listen, as a fan of a 55-year-old series with 801 episodes. [Haeny laughs] And as someone who was who is friends with Supernatural fans,

Olu:  Woah.

Ebony: And Supernatural ran 20 years. [Lalitha: right] You are fine. Loving the Walking Dead. May it have many more seasons, okay. [Lalitha and Olu laugh]

Haeny: Thank you, thank you. I hope they're actually hearing this. AMC take notes.

Lalitha:  Come on AMC.

Olu:  Is that the note we want them to take? Is that really? I don’t know if that’s the best decision for them- I don’t- know. Mmm. [All laugh]

Haeny:  Oh my goodness, Okay. Well, this has been super fun. And I could actually be in this conversation forever. It's been so great to be in company with each of you. Thank you for joining us today. Thank you, Lalitha:, for being an excellent co-host. Thank you Olu and Ebony. Thank you for your insights. Thank you for your time. Thank you for all the resources and the things that you've suggested to us about what's poppin; we'll be sure to check that out. Thank you.

Ebony:  Thank you.

Olu:  Thank you.

Lalitha:  Thank you so much. This was so fun.

Haeny: Yeah, this was so fun.

[Playful music fades in under previous sentence, then fades up, then lower under outro.]

Haeny: Thanks to Ebony and Olu for joining us, and to Lalitha for co-hosting, and as always, thanks to you for listening! This episode was edited by Lucius Von Joo and Joe Riina-Ferrie.

Nathan: Pop and Play is produced by Haeny Yoon, Lalitha Vasudevan, Joe Riina-Ferrie and myself, Nathan Holbert, at Teachers College, Columbia University with the Digital Futures Institute. For a transcript and to learn more, visit tc.edu/popandplay. Our music is selections from Leafeaters by Podington Bear, used here under a creative commons attribution non-commercial license. Thanks for listening and we’ll see you next time!  

[Music fades up under Nathan’s last sentence and then out]