Episode 7: Detectives and Columbo with Sonali Rajan and Mark and Arlo Maynard

Mark's Website

(Re)Search for Solutions with Sonali Rajan - a podcast on gun violence research

[intro music plays]

Haeny:
This week on Pop and Play, we're talking detective stories.

Nathan:
Wow. You sound so professional when you start us out. I love that.

Haeny:
I know. I'm trying my best. I'm trying my best Ira Glass.

Nathan:
This week on Pop and Play we'll be talking about intergenerational play. Our guest this week is Haeny Yoon. Something like that?

Haeny:
Oh my God. What are we even talking about?

Nathan:
All right. All right. On this episode of Pop and Play, we are talking about detectives, right?

Haeny:
Yes.

Nathan:
Detectives.

Haeny:
Yes.

Nathan:
Detectives in the context of play, in the context of different types of media that people encounter and experience across different generations, across different sort of ages and age groups. But detectives. Detectives exist on all sorts of different kinds of media. They exist on TV, they're on certainly books for many many years. Comics.

Haeny:
Podcasts.

Nathan:
Podcasts. I know you're a big fan of-

Haeny:
True Crime,

Nathan:
... true crime podcasts. We should have started in the form, in the style of a true true crime podcast.

Haeny:
How is that?

Nathan:
You need some really kind of dramatic sound effects. [ominous bell sound] The phone rang. Haeny didn't expect to have a phone call that night, but what she didn't know [ominous bell sound] is her life would never be the same after she answered.

Haeny:
Now I'm thinking about Scream. Anyway.

Nathan:
So this episode we're talking about detectives and detectives stories, whether those exist on TV, in comics, in books, true crime podcasts.

Haeny:
Audible books.

Nathan:
Audible books. Not just books that you read, but also sometimes books that you listen to. Haeny, let's start out by just getting a sense of how you engage with detective stories.

Haeny:
Yeah, I mean, I feel like I was thinking about the intergenerational component of it, and I realized that I actually have talked about detectives with a lot of different people across a lot of different age groups, because I think it's just one of those things, picking up clues, solving a mystery, finding out something that nobody knows about yet, and getting to the bottom of something, I think is a human pursuit that we all like to do. Because I don't like true crime because I like people getting murdered. Let's be clear. I like true crime because I like the idea of people solving a mystery.

Nathan:
I think, I think there is something kind of maybe human about wanting to solve a mystery, figure out a secret, figure out something that you couldn't understand before. Yeah, that's a good way to think about this.

Haeny:
Yeah, it's like those invisible ink pens. It's a blank piece of paper.

Nathan:
How is it like that?

Haeny:
It's a blank piece of paper. You don't know anything about it, and then you scratch it and you see a message that says, [whispering] I will murder you.

Nathan:
So wait, you said you don't like the murder, but I'm starting to think that maybe you do.

Haeny:
Okay, so tell me some detectives you admire.

Nathan:
Well, when you just were talking about picking up clues and things, I did immediately think about the Hardy Boys, and I'm also thinking back to our episode on Choose Your Own Adventure books. I don't know if we've talked about this before, but the two books that I would read incessantly when I was a kid was Choose Your Own Adventure books, or I would read The Hardy Boys. And so the Hardy Boys were really fun set of detectives that I spent a lot of time with as a kid. And I'm also a big sucker for Batman. I think Batman often referred to as the world's greatest detective despite-

Haeny:
Who refers to Batman as the world's greatest detective? I've never heard that.

Nathan:
Look it up. Look it up. For the listeners, Haeny and I have been arguing about whether or not Batman is a detective for months now.

Haeny:
Batman is not a detective. How is he a detective?

Nathan:
Let me ask a different question. Who do you think of when you think of Batman?

Haeny:
Who do I think of?

Nathan:
Yeah.

Haeny:
Michael Keaton.

Nathan:
Michael Keaton. I like that.

Haeny:
Think of dark and brooding and gloomy, and I think of a superhero slash, I guess he's not really a vigilante, but I don't know. He doesn't read Detective to me.

Nathan:
Well, speaking of reading, the first Batman comics were called Detective Comics, so the whole deal was he was a detective.

Haeny:
Are you lying to me?

Nathan:
No, it's true. That's why I said, look it up. Yeah, no, for sure. The reason I asked that who do you think of is, there are characters, we're talking about Batman right now, so we'll talk about Batman, there are characters-

Haeny:
Who's not a detective.

Nathan:
How dare you. have all these qualities, and then when we tell stories about these characters, we can elevate or we could reduce different aspects of their characters. And it does seem to be that right now the primary way in which Batman is showcased in the world is the sort of brutal, brooding, angry guy, but there's been lots of different versions of Batman that was much more about him as a thinker, him as a problem solver, him as a detective. And I kind of gravitate towards that version. So I told you about detectives that I like, and I've also said a few things about the qualities of those detectives that I like. Say a bit about the detectives in your life.

Haeny:
I mean, I used to read Encyclopedia Brown and Watch Inspector Gadget, and those are the detectives from my life. But I think more recently, I think I've said this on a podcast before, I've watched 15 seasons of Criminal Minds during the Pandemic. And so now my new favorite detective is Dr. Spencer Reid, and he's one of the detectives, not like a Batman detective, like a real-

Nathan:
She's doing air quotes, for the audio medium here.

Haeny:
Media here, Batman in air quotes detective. Then Dr. Spencer Reid is an actual detective who solves murders and he's part of the behavioral analysis unit of the FBI, I think. And so, I think he's one of my favorite detectives, because he-

Nathan:
What do you like about him?

Haeny:
He thinks, he has a file in his mind. He's really smart.

Nathan:
Sounds like Batman, but keep going.

Haeny:
It's not the same at all. He doesn't punch people. He punches people with his words.

Nathan:
So maybe you are a detective. You punch me with your words all the time.

Haeny:
Oh, yeah, deduction. I'm a detective. So I'm into that.

Nathan:
So it's something about people that think, people that, as you said earlier, sort of uncover kind of secrets. They try to piece together seemingly disparate ideas or different pieces of evidence, they try to draw connections and find patterns.

Haeny:
Yeah, it's like a puzzle.

Nathan:
And we also are, maybe I'm also attracted to the detectives that occasionally punch things, whereas you're attracted to the detectives that use their words and use their mind to solve the case. There is a detective that neither of us mentioned. I don't know that this detective would make either of our list, but I think it's an interesting detective, and that is Columbo.

Haeny:
Yes.

Nathan:
And that's a detective we're going to talk about this week.

Haeny:
Yeah. So should we talk about what Columbo is?

Nathan:
Yeah. Say a bit about Columbo.

Haeny:
Well, I don't know if I should be the one that says a lot about Columbo, but Columbo, played by the late Peter Falk, is a detective in the true sense of the word. Basically, I'm going to go with physical characteristics. He always wears a trench coat, his hair is always disheveled. I think he always has a cigar in hand, right?

Nathan:
Yeah.

Haeny:
He has a wife in the show that is never seen, and he basically uses his mind to out-maneuver criminals and solve the crime.

Nathan:
He's one of these detectives that starting out with the physical is kind of important because the idea is that he's sort of presents as if he's a nobody, presents as if he's a little disheveled or sort of unkempt, but he's brilliant and he's always thinking, and he's thinking at a speed that is at a different speed than everyone else is thinking at. He's sort of ahead of everybody, but he looks like he's behind everybody.

Haeny:
Yes. I feel like that is quintessential Columbo, is that he's always underestimated, and he knows it and he uses it to its advantage, which I think is really cool, is that everybody around him thinks he's kind of dumb and aloof and doesn't know anything, and that's what he uses to basically trick everybody else. So you know his tagline. What's his tagline?

Nathan:
Oh, and another thing. I didn't say it like Columbo.

Haeny:
Just one more thing.

Nathan:
Just one more thing. That's what it is.

Haeny:
Yeah. So seems like he's done with you, it seems like you're in the clear, but then he turns around and is like, just one more thing. You're a killer.

Nathan:
But he's also not the kind of detective that tries to use that as some a power over other people, and he's always humble in his success. Like you said, he's ahead of everybody. People assume he's an idiot, but he never lashes out at them. He just sort of gradually over time wears them out until he succeeds.

Haeny:
I really love what you said about the wears people down, because that's basically what he does. He just wears them down until they can't take it anymore, and then they're basically, fine. I did it.
Okay. So for our listeners, tell us about the arc of an episode of Columbo.

Nathan:
First of all, I love that you and I are providing the answers to these questions because if it's not already clear, Haeny and I are not Columbo experts. We are extreme novices here, but we're trying to give you some information because we're going to talk to experts in a few moments. But a [Columbo] episode has a really particular structure, and that structure begins with the murder that we get to see. The audience gets to see the murder as it happens, as it unfolds, and then Columbo comes onto the scene and begins working the case. It has this particular structure where you are getting to see him figure out things, and he's figuring out things that you don't necessarily realize either at the moment of the murder, but you sort of get to see it all unfold, see how he comes to solve the case.

Haeny:
Yeah, I mean, in preparation, we did watch Candidate for Crime, which I guess I hear, the word on the street is that introductions to Columbo come through that episode for some reason.

Nathan:
It's a good starter. It's a good starter episode. So another thing we should probably mention about Columbo is this, if you haven't seen this, it was, what do they call that episodic? Each episode is self-contained and it's sort of almost a movie length, and it aired in the seventies. It would come on the air. You'd have your hour and a half and then you have to wait till the next one came out. But it is, despite that, it is this artifact that has persisted. There are people that continue to watch, talk about, write blogs, write social media posts about Columbo.

Haeny:
There are a lot of blogs about Columbo.

Nathan:
Yeah. So why are we talking about Columbo as an intergenerational artifact then? What are we doing here?

Haeny:
I can tell you why I'm personally invested in Columbo as an intergenerational artifact. Because I barely knew anything about it. My brother-in-law, Mark and his son Arlo, that's how I got introduced to it. They would talk about it all the time.

Nathan:
So you mentioned Mark and Arlo, who are going to be two of our guests on this episode, and our third guest is Sonali Rajan, a returning guest on Pop and Play, is also a huge Columbo fan and frequently watches Columbo with her son. And my daughter often is in their apartment, ends up watching Columbo with them as well.

Haeny:
And I think that's what certain TV shows or certain media does for people sometimes. It brings generations together. I think there's some that provide a space and a platform for a lot of different people to engage with. And this just happens to be one of those anecdotally.

Nathan:
In our n of three.

Haeny:
That has been intergenerational.

Nathan:
Great. Well, I think let's bring our guests on and let's actually hear from experts about Columbo. Somebody who actually knows what they're talking about.

Haeny:
Right on.

[detective theme music]

Nathan:
So we are very excited to welcome three very special, very excellent guests to this episode of Pop and Play on detective stories. Our first guest is, who will be no stranger to our Pop and Play audience, is Sonali Rajan, our friend, our colleague, our confidant. And I'll be honest with you, Sonali and I are good friends outside of these occasional record sessions, and she has practically demanded for now three seasons of Pop and Play that we do an episode where we talk a little bit about Columbo. So what you're about to hear is very much her fault. Hopefully it goes well.

Sonali:
I would like you all to know it took three seasons. I'm a little insulted given how close Nathan and I are and how much time we spend together that it took this much convincing. But thank you in advance.

Nathan:
We're delighted to have you.

Sonali:
Thanks for having me, guys.

Haeny:
Very delighted to have you. We also have equally amazing Columbo fans in the house as well. We have Mark Maynard over there, and he is a co-owner of a really, really great restaurant in Ypsilanti called Bellflower. Highly recommend. They have awesome milk bread. I wish I could eat it right now. And then we also have Arlo, who is 10 going on 11, 11 in December, I think.

Sonali:
Hi Arlo.

Haeny:
And a fifth grader. Maybe we should find out... Arlo, what do you do? What is your occupation right now?

Mark:
[whispering] What do you do for a job?

Arlo:
Math.

Sonali:
Good answer.

Haeny:
Sounds like a good answer.
[ominous bell sound] Okay. Personal agenda vendetta. We usually do a segment called Popping Up where we ask our guests to comment on a lightning round speed of questions, but instead we decided that we wanted them to settle just one question, which is, is Batman a detective? [ominous bell sound]

Arlo:
No.

Haeny:
No? Why not? Arlo, tell us why not?

Arlo:
Because he just caught people and he would just break into their home and attack them.

Nathan:
Oh my goodness.

Haeny:
So he's kind of like a vigilante villain, is that what you're saying?

Nathan:
Yeah.

Haeny:
I think you should let Mark say his piece too.

Mark:
Yeah. I'm not up to speed enough to say. I didn't read the early ones, but I think the modern Batman, yeah, I think it's more like the vigilante stuff as I remember. I don't think he's solving, he's not solving mysteries, I don't recall.

Sonali:
He's not using his mind to detect. And I think that's where Arlo and I... I mean, okay, Nathan's about to like...

Nathan:
Arlo. You seem like such a nice kid. I hate for us to get started in such a bad way here. Oh my goodness. And Sonali, you of all people. I can't believe you betrayed me in this way.

Sonali:
You guys, I think this might be the end of our friendship.

Nathan:
This actually might do it.

Sonali:
September 19th. Okay.

Nathan:
Batman-

Sonali:
Mark the date.

Nathan:
... is often described as the greatest detective. Batman was introduced in a comic called Detective Comics. His whole thing is being a detective. The problem of course, is that some of the movies, some of the more recent movies just sort of portray him as kind of a brutal, brooding, arrr, punching kind of guy. But no, Batman is always, he is out there solving these cool, these really complex crimes. There's a really great comic series by Jeph Loeb called The Long Halloween, and it's a series of comics where this murder happens and it happens on Halloween, and then every holiday after that, a new murder happens. And Batman's trying really hard to figure out who it is and to stop these murders and he can't figure it out. And he goes through all the rogue gallery of villains to try to solve this and eventually sort of uncovers it and stops the crime.
Highly recommend. Batman is absolutely a detective. I'm sorry that you all are wrong. And I apologize. I apologize to the Pop and Play listeners here who had to sit and hear that slander against Batman. I can't believe it.
We want to talk with you all, not about Batman. As much as I would like to have us just discuss Batman, I think today the topic is going to be Columbo. I certainly wasn't super familiar with Columbo before we started preparing for this conversation. It seems possible that some of our listeners aren't familiar with the shtick of Columbo and the structure of Columbo. So can you maybe tell us a little bit about what is Columbo? how does it kind of go down? And then also, why it's something that's so important to your life?

Sonali:
Yes. Columbo was a detective series show that ran for over the course of a two or three decades. And essentially the shtick of a Columbo episode is that, Columbo is a lieutenant with the LAPD. He's this disheveled sort of looking guy, always in a trench coat, smoking a cigar or chewing a cigar. In every episode you know right away who the murderer is. And the murder happens usually within the first 10 minutes or so of the episode. And then the rest of the episode is Columbo using his brilliance to basically catch the murderer.
And then I guess for me, I grew up watching Columbo with my parents and my sisters, and I think I was about a little younger than Arlo when I started watching probably eight, third or fourth grade. My now seven-year-old, when he was born and I was up really late and you're trying to feed this kid and you're just awake, whatever, I would put on these episodes of Columbo when he was a newborn. And my husband still laughs, but he was like, he's going to think that Peter Falk is part of our family. And I'm like, well, he is kind of part of our family. That's not entirely wrong.
I think for me growing up, and still to this day, there is something very comforting about Columbo as a character and as a show and as our listeners know, most of my work is very dark and the sort of issues I spend a lot of time thinking about. So there's something very escapist and low stress that I really appreciate about a Columbo episode, because you know it'll be resolved.
And then I think probably the other thing is just that Columbo as a character, he's a really kind person with a very clear moral compass. He's also someone who's actively anti-gun, which as a gun violence prevention researcher, I really appreciate as a quality. I would argue even for my parents probably were like, yeah, watch this show because these are good qualities. He works hard. He's kind.

Mark:
I think just there wasn't a lot of ego driving his actions, but he was very bright and he was secure in how bright he was and wasn't trying to be anything other than he was. And he just did the job and followed the clues wherever they led. I mean, he was just a really hard worker.
I just used Columbo as a way to teach my kids because it's like, here's skills that I don't have. Watch this. He was just always a presence in my life, a television detective, obviously. Because I always associate him with holidays in my family. Our family, different podcast, but like most families, there are difficulties, but I have memories of retreating into Columbo when I was a kid. I don't know. And also I think he resonates... I have O C D, and I think that that's part... I was re watching the second episode the other day, and in that he says, "I'm a worrier," and he's just always thinking all the time about different scenarios and things that could be happening. And I think that that's something that I took comfort in.

Haeny:
Arlo. How about you? Who is Columbo?

Arlo:
Columbo's a guy who I always wonder about. Because I always wonder if they're ever going to show the wife in it.

Sonali:
I know.

Haeny:
That's totally something that we were wondering about too, as we were watching it. Because they always use that as a storyline.

Arlo:
Yeah, but the wife is never there.

Haeny:
Does she ever appear? Do you know?

Arlo:
No, I don't think so.

Mark:
They released another series when he refused to do it or when he backed away from the series, the production company that owned Columbo decided to do Mrs. Columbo Mysteries. I had the opportunity to meet him once. And then he and I talked on the phone a couple times.

Nathan:
Oh wow.

Mark:
But he did not like that series.

Haeny:
Wait, how did you get to talk to him on the phone?

Mark:
He gave me his phone number.

Haeny:
What?

Nathan:
Wait, wait. I feel like we've missed a few steps here.

Haeny:
Yeah. How did you get his phone number?

Mark:
Linette, my wife and I published a magazine called Crime Wave, and we always interviewed people for the magazine. And I interviewed him, I don't know, 18 years ago, something like that. And we hit it off. He gave me his number and said to call him. So I called him.

Haeny:
That's a pretty cool story.

Mark:
It wasn't a real friendship, it was just like I would occasionally call and just talk briefly.

Nathan:
Yeah, but you would just occasionally call up Peter Falk, So that's not nothing.

Sonali:
You know that mind blown emoji? I am like that right now. Literally, when my family hears this.

Nathan:
I'm curious, both you and Sonali, you and Mark both mentioned that there was, from this parent perspective, that Columbo represents some certain qualities that you felt like, I really want my kids, I want people that I care about to have these qualities. I'm curious, Arlo, I want to ask you a question. Are there qualities of Columbo that you think that's really cool, I would kind of like to be like that?

Arlo:
He is kind when he arrests people. My dad said one time he arrested somebody and then he gave him wine and some food.

Sonali:
I love that ending.

Mark:
I can't remember the details, but at the end, Columbo brought him a bottle and they sat in the back of his car and had a drink before they took him into jail. There was no harsh lights and no interrogation, no threatening people, just this sense that we're playing this game together and eventually I'm going to come out on top because I work harder and I never stop. I mean, there are a lot of little moments. Just the person realizing what's happening, is such a nice moment when they're like, oh, I totally underestimated you, and now I get it. Now I understand exactly what's happening. And you can see them kind of die inside. And that's always a pleasant moment.

Haeny:
I mean, I'm just wondering, how did you get convinced that, this is a question for all of you, that you wanted to get into Columbo and continue watching? Did you watch it for the first time and think, oh my gosh, this is exactly what I've been waiting for? Or did it take a while?

Sonali:
I mean, I like to think that eight year old Sonali probably was like, this is it you guys.

Nathan:
Just got it. She just got it.

Sonali:
In 31 years I'm going to do a podcast episode and I'm going to be ready. I don't know, Mark, how it was for you, but for me, I feel like it was almost a habit of, oh, it's just on. I have this very vivid memory of my mom being home after school. She would let me do homework in front of a Columbo episode because it wasn't a thing that would distract me. It was just on in the background almost. So I feel like I don't think it was like, oh, I'm seeking to get into Columbo. I think it was just a habit. And then it's like, well, when you watch it so many times, it's osmosis. So it's there,

Nathan:
It's absorbent.

Sonali:
I find a lot of comfort in watching things that are familiar. And again, I think that might be my own personality and my own worry on things.

Mark:
For me, there weren't enough of them, at least anywhere I lived when I was young, that they were in constant rotation on television. I remember seeing them first run when they were on in the seventies and eighties. It was something special because, at least before things were in reruns, if you didn't see them, there was no VCR. There was no... and you'd happen to catch it and I would feel really happy that I just happened to experience it.

Haeny:
Arlo, do you think you liked it from the beginning? Do you remember watching your first episode and liking it?

Arlo:
Not really.

Haeny:
This is a related question. Do any of your friends watch Columbo?

Arlo:
I don't know. Probably not.

Haeny:
Yeah, I'm guessing probably not either. What episode do you think will convince them to like it?

Nathan:
Great question.

Sonali:
Great question.

Haeny:
If you had one chance to convert one of your friends into a Columbo fan, which episode would you recommend to them?

Arlo:
Maybe the one where the sister makes the brother walk in the room and then she shoots him through the window.

Mark:
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I can't remember the name.

Sonali:
The Old Fashioned Murder.

Haeny:
Wait, the sister murders the brother?

Sonali:
Yes.

Mark:
Lady in Waiting.

Sonali:
Lady in Waiting. The fashion in that one is amazing, Haeny.

Haeny:
Oh, excellent. So why did the sister shoot the brother?

Nathan:
Lady in Waiting.

Arlo:
Because the brother was not letting her marry who she wanted to marry. And then she had enough, and then she turned off the light bulb so he couldn't turn it back on.

Sonali:
I will say, in the spirit of kids watching, my seven-year-old, sometimes I'll have an episode on while I'm washing dishes after dinner or something like that. And he will sometimes come in and he'll be like, "Oh, you're watching Columbo again." And he's like, "Oh mama, this is boring." And I'm like, "That's okay. It's okay." But then he'll stop and he'll stand there and 15 minutes later he's still watching. And my husband always laughs because he's like mm-hmm. Not so boring now, is it?

Nathan:
So here, I got a question to wrap us here. I'm curious. We've talked a lot about the kind of qualities of Columbo that we like and the qualities of detectives that we find interesting. Is there one Columbo moment that you can think of that is just, obviously, there's many of them that you have enjoyed, but is there one that just has a special place in your heart? Maybe it's your favorite moment, maybe it's a funny moment, maybe it's a revealing moment. What's one Columbo moment that you feel like is just right for you?

Sonali:
So, there is an episode called Negative Reaction, and it's about a photographer. So it's about a photographer. Dick Van Dyke is the murderer.

Nathan:
Oh, even better.

Sonali:
So good. And it's a longer episode. You can just tell Columbo's really... It's a hard one for Columbo to figure out. But I think at the end of that episode, Arlo, I don't know if you remember this, but there's a scene, he catches the murderer and the police take him away. And then there's a scene where Columbo just sits and slumps over and you just see the back, but he's really... it's one of the very few times you see how hard this is for him as a character. And how, oh my God, that was so much work. And I just think that's so interesting because in a lot of the other episodes, it sort of feels like it comes more naturally. And this one, he had to work for it. And I always think about that end scene. I'm like, that's good.

Nathan:
No, that's good.

Mark:
I don't know if it's a specific scene, but I mentioned earlier that I enjoyed the moment where the killer finds out that he or she is actually being, that Columbo's, honing in on them and all these questions are leading somewhere. There's an equivalent kind of scene when they say to Columbo, you really are shrewd. I don't know how they, but then he just downplays it and goes, "No, no, no, I'm just asking questions." And he doesn't make eye contact. And he kind of plays it down and just plays kind of dumb. But he completely plays down how bright he is. And I think that's a really nice moment that reoccurs throughout the shows. Is there a moment you liked, Arlo?

Arlo:
I like a moment where, I forgot what it was called, but somebody.. Oh yeah. I think now I know. Didn't they throw a toaster while their uncle was in the bath or something.

Sonali:
Oh, an electric mixer.

Arlo:
But then that might've been the episode where I think the maid, or it might've been a different episode, but a maid was yelling at Columbo because he was very messy. [inaudible] episode almost, but he did everything, and then she started screaming.

Nathan:
I love that.

Mark:
Yeah. He was getting ashes on her. He used a silver tray for an ashtray and got yelled at.

Nathan:
I love that. I like that. That was my favorite moment in that one episode.

Mark:
I would love to see the scripts and see how much was... I mean, I think the reason the first episodes were all so great, or the first several seasons was because I think there was a lot of improv. I mean, he came from that school where they did a lot of improv, and I suspect most of that was not written. Like when he goes looking through his pockets and stuff. I think he was legitimately trying to get people to react in ways that they didn't train for or weren't practiced for. So there were times when he'd come back into the room, he'd come different ways between takes to get them off-

Nathan:
Balance.

Mark:
And I do think there were fantastic actors the first several seasons, and I think they were just playing and having fun. And I think that's why they got such great performances from these people.

Nathan:
Haeny, do you have any moments in the two episodes that you watched?

Haeny:
Okay. I do want to say that the episode I watched, the Lovely but Lethal one, the reason why I liked it is I feel like it was kind of like a feminist mantra.

Nathan:
Oh.

Haeny:
Because the villain was this woman who figured everything out right away, and then she tried to blackmail. This goes back to Arlo saying this weekend, the two things he learned from Columbo are don't murder and don't blackmail.

Nathan:
And she did both. She blew it.

Sonali:
She did both.

Haeny:
She blackmailed her. Because she had found out that she had done it so early. And so I just like the whole, they're kind of trying to outsmart each other. It was very focused on the women in there, and the murderer, she was wearing this awesome white jumpsuit.

Sonali:
It was gorgeous.

Haeny:
Yeah. Gorgeous. Very, very nice jumpsuit. She's talking to Columbo and basically Columbo's like, "Well, did you date?" whatever, and she's kind of like, "I date a lot of men. Okay." Why can't I date a whole bunch of, and I just love it because obviously it's very standard right now, but not back then. I just liked that they did all this stuff. So anyway.

Nathan:
I like that. That's good.

Haeny:
It's very cool.

Nathan:
That's great. Well, thank you guys for talking with us about-

Haeny:
Can you believe we had a whole episode about Columbo?

Sonali:
You guys, this just makes my heart so happy. You have no idea.

Nathan:
This has been edited down. This was a seven hour conversation that we had about Columbo.

Sonali:
And then Nathan was like, "Okay guys, we got to go to bed."

Nathan:
Let's talk Batman. We got to at least talk Batman before bed. No. We have one more segment and we'd like to ask our guests. Haeny, can you help explain what is the next segment?

Haeny:
Sure. Our last segment is called What's Poppin? And basically we like to ask our guests, what's something that you find really interesting right now? Could be TV, movie, toy, something that people are really into.

Nathan:
Video games.

Haeny:
Video games, something that's trending. It could be a book. Some people still like to read you know.

Nathan:
Sometimes.

Haeny:
So what's popping right now in your life that you think other people should know about?

Nathan:
Sonali, anything poppin for you?

Sonali:
This is a judgment free zone, Nathan, because I have-

Haeny:
No, it's not. Definitely judgy.

Nathan:
It's really not. I don't know where you got this idea.

Sonali:
All right, well.

Haeny:
Beware of whatever you say next.

Sonali:
Okay. Well, I do live with a seven-year-old. So I feel like so much of my world is that these days. And I literally spent four hours yesterday with him doing Pokémon related things. And oh, I did my first trade with one of his friends.

Nathan:
Oh nice.

Sonali:
He gave me some card. So I did my first Pokémon card trade. So anyway, I just feel like I've been very much in Pokémon world lately, which would not have been my thing, but my kid who I'm crazy about is crazy about this, so by extension now-

Haeny:
Pokémon is poppin.

Sonali:
Yeah, Pokémon is poppin in my life.

Nathan:
What a good parent. Mark, Arlo, anything popping for you guys?

Arlo:
I like Pokémon cards too.

Nathan:
Yeah. Is there a particular Pokémon you like the best?

Arlo:
This one.

Haeny:
What is it? Can you tell us what it is?

Nathan:
Dark Hypno?

Arlo:
Yeah.

Nathan:
Oh, whoa. That's a cool card.

Sonali:
Okay. Arlo, you just gave me something to go home and tell my kid about.

Haeny:
What about you, Mark?

Mark:
My popular culture interests kind of end in like '84. I don't watch a lot of color movies or anything like that. So just walking, I think. Arlo and I walk a lot. There's a lake near us, so we walk and birdwatch. We walk down and look at herons, so I say green herons are poppin.

Haeny:
Green herons are poppin.

Mark:
There are a lot of green herons at our lake. This time of year at least, you see at least five or six every time we go. And they are beautiful little birds and we love them.

Haeny:
I love that.

Mark:
I encourage everyone to go find a green heron.

Haeny:
Walking and birdwatching is poppin.

Mark:
It's poppin.

Nathan:
Yeah, I mean, trends are cyclical, so I bet in the next four months, birdwatching is going to get huge and green herons are going to be all the rage and we're going to be like, hello. I've been birdwatching.

Haeny:
Birdwatching is already huge.

Mark:
Birdwatching went up a lot during COVID.

Haeny:
Yeah, obviously. You don't know what you're talking about.

Mark:
Kayaking and birdwatching were two of the fastest growing hobbies, I think.

Nathan:
Everyone is telling me in this room that birdwatching is huge.

Haeny:
Birdwatching is poppin.

Nathan:
Listen, I'm always about three years behind on the trends, so that tracks.

Haeny:
Obviously.

Nathan:
Hey. Oh, fantastic. Thank you guys so much for joining us today. It was really fun to talk with you about your experiences together, watching and exploring this genre. It was a lot of fun. Thank you for being here.

Haeny:
Yeah, thank you, Arlo.

Arlo:
Thank you for inviting us.

Haeny:
Oh, thank you. Thank you, Arlo. Thank you, Mark.

[Theme music plays]

Nathan Holbert:
This season of Pop and Play was produced by Haeny Yoon, Nathan Holbert, Lalitha Vasudevan, Billy Collins, and Joe Riina-Ferrie, and assistant produced by Lucius Von Joo at Teachers College, Columbia University with the Digital Futures Institute. Audio editing and production by Billy Collins.

Haeny Yoon:
For transcripts, and to learn more about our guests, visit tc.edu/popandplay. Our music is selections from Leaf Eaters by Podington Bear. Pop and Play, of course, would not be possible without the fabulous team that helps put this together. Thanks to Oluwaseun Animashaun for running the Pop and Play social media accounts where you should follow us on Twitter, Instagram, and TikTok under @popandplaypod. You can also follow us on Twitch under popandplay. Special thanks to Drew Reynolds, Jen Lee, Blake Danzig, Brianne Minaudo, Moira McCavana, and Lucius Von Joo who all helped with our outreach and or website support. Shout out to Ioana Literat for the Trashies, watch on Instagram and TikTok. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you next time.