Episode 2: Fashion Forward with Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz and Olivia Ruiz

• Our journey toward racial literacy: A mother and daughter’s story by Yolanda and Olivia
• Rest is Resistance: A Manifesto by Tricia Hersey of The Nap Ministry
• Scattered Kind rug tufting in Brooklyn

[theme music fades in]

Haeny Yoon:
Welcome back-

Nathan Holbert:
We're here.

Haeny Yoon:
to a new episode of Pop and Play.

Nathan Holbert:
Another Pop and Play. Another week for you, the listener. Another month, couple days for us, the hosts.

Haeny Yoon:
This is an epic episode because it's-

Nathan Holbert:
It's epic.

Haeny Yoon:
The one that I've been waiting for for a really long time.

Nathan Holbert:
Yeah.

Haeny Yoon:
I almost gave up on it, but then Joe, our producer, was like, "I feel like you've been so into it. You have to do it."

Nathan Holbert:
I'll admit, I'm impressed by your stick-to-it-iveness, your tenacity, and also your ability to make me do things that make me extremely uncomfortable. Excellent work on that as well.

Haeny Yoon:
Excellent. Excellent. Okay.

Nathan Holbert:
What is the topic that you've been dying to do?

Haeny Yoon:
I've been dying to do a topic on fashion as an intergenerational artifact, and I feel like what isn't more intergenerational than fashion?

Nathan Holbert:
Yeah, that's a great point. Fashion is... Let me say a few words about fashion as the expert in the room, the fashion expert. It's cyclical, right? It goes and it comes and it keeps coming back, and you can raid your parents' closets and that's like the new thing all of a sudden.

Haeny Yoon:
Totally. Neil and I walk down the sidewalks of New York and we look at the youth-

Nathan Holbert:
The youths.

Haeny Yoon:
The youths wearing fashion, and we're like, "We should have kept all our clothes from 1994 and we'd be so cool right now." Before we start-

Nathan Holbert:
Yeah.

Haeny Yoon:
I feel like you should describe for the listeners what you're wearing today on our fashion episode.

Nathan Holbert:
Well, this is just normal for me. I don't know. The people that know me that listen to this show might know that fashion obviously is my life, and I really am driven by what's new, what's hip, and not only driven by that, I drive that. I set the tone for this whole building, I would say. But yeah, no, fashion is my thing, and right now, I just pulled out just the usual. A T-shirt, some jeans, maybe also a cravat scarf situation. What kind of material is it?

Haeny Yoon:
Corduroy.

Nathan Holbert:
A corduroy blue hat.

Haeny Yoon:
Powder blue.

Nathan Holbert:
And a pair of aviators, which I often-

Haeny Yoon:
That you're wearing inside.

Nathan Holbert:
Yeah, just the usual.

Haeny Yoon:
Okay.

Nathan Holbert:
No big deal.

Haeny Yoon:
Yeah. Let me tell you about my outfit.

Nathan Holbert:
Yes, tell us.

Haeny Yoon:
This morning, I changed five times in preparation for this fashion episode because I was like, "I have to come fashionable." Then at the end of the day, 10 minutes before I got here, I changed back to what I just normally wear every day.

Nathan Holbert:
Back to the beginning.

Haeny Yoon:
Now I'm just wearing a denim shirt and jeans and I decided that in order to be fashionable, I should probably just put on some accessories, so now I'm highly accessorized.

Nathan Holbert:
You've accessorized the hell out of it. I definitely put these extra accessories on right when I came into the studio. I did not wear them through the building.

Haeny Yoon:
Yeah, and you could take them off really easily.

Nathan Holbert:
No, I'm wearing them for the rest of the day.

Haeny Yoon:
Oh, okay. Sounds good. Sounds like a plan. Well, okay. Do you ever recall a time being interested in fashion though? As a kid, was there something that you always wanted that other kids were wearing or that was kind of trendy at the time that you really wanted?

Nathan Holbert:
That's a great question. One that I was not prepared for, which makes it even more fun. Here's what I can say, is on the one hand, I have never been interested in fashion. There's certainly obviously a phase in middle school where you're like, "Oh no, I have to actually care about these things a little bit," but I've always prioritized comfort over fashion, always. Most of the time, no, I was never really jealous of some look, but I'll say two things come to mind. One is when I was really young, there were a particular kind of pants called jam pants. Do you remember jam pants?

Haeny Yoon:
No. What's that?

Nathan Holbert:
I guess they would be like skater pants, but this is earlier than the skater days, but they were knee-length-

Haeny Yoon:
Oh, it's like long shorts basically?

Nathan Holbert:
Long shorts. Yeah.

Haeny Yoon:
Okay. Yes.

Nathan Holbert:
Not quite three-quarter lengths.

Haeny Yoon:
Yeah, yeah.

Nathan Holbert:
But those were cool, and I thought, "Oh, maybe I should wear those," and I tried on a pair once, I remember, at the store, and I was like, "These are totally uncomfortable." It was very short-lived, but just for some reason, that's locked in my brain, jam pants.

Haeny Yoon:
So you never had a pair of jam pants?

Nathan Holbert:
No, no. I intentionally never wore jam pants. They were just too uncomfortable. Then the other thing that I can recall is that I distinctly remember in college, I don't know if this counts as fashion. I think it does, but I distinctly remember there was this guy that I was friends with in college that had this cool hairdo, and it was this relatively short, but messed up look. I'd just be like, "Dude, he always looks cool. He looks like he just doesn't care and he just looks so cool." I always wanted to do that. I tried to figure out how to do that with my hair, and I never have fully accomplished it, but I will say that I still do the exact same thing that I had tried to do in college 30 years ago. I'm still trying to achieve that look even to this day. That maybe is the only other fashion thing that's stuck with me.

Haeny Yoon:
Excellent. That is a fashion thing. That's an aesthetic.

Nathan Holbert:
Yeah. Okay. So it's all aesthetics are fashion?

Haeny Yoon:
Yeah.

Nathan Holbert:
I see. How about you? Which looks... I know you've probably been interested in all sorts of different looks over time, but are there particular ones that-

Haeny Yoon:
I have. I have. Well, I have two moments and they both involve T-shirts. One of them, I actually remember when Michael Jackson's Thriller album came out. I was very obsessed with that. I listened to it nonstop for years.

Nathan Holbert:
Yeah.

Haeny Yoon:
I actually got a pink Thriller shirt.

Nathan Holbert:
Okay.

Haeny Yoon:
A pink Thriller shirt and a Menudo belt. I don't know if you remember-

Nathan Holbert:
Yes.

Haeny Yoon:
Menudo was this band back in the day.

Nathan Holbert:
Yep.

Haeny Yoon:
I had a yellow Menudo belt and I had a pink Thriller shirt, and I loved that outfit. My last thing that I never got was... I feel like it was middle school or maybe closer to high school or something. Do you remember those Generra shirts that like... Hyper... Hype whatever.

Nathan Holbert:
Hypercolor. Yeah.

Haeny Yoon:
Yeah. Hypercolor.

Nathan Holbert:
It would change color if it was warm or cool.

Haeny Yoon:
Yeah, if you touch it. Yes. Everybody had that. I really wanted it and I never got it because it's really expensive.

Nathan Holbert:
Yeah. Yes.

Haeny Yoon:
It's not cheap.

Nathan Holbert:
I remember that too.

Haeny Yoon:
I really wanted that. I wanted a Hypercolor shirt and I wanted a Spree tote bag to match it, but I didn't get either of those things, but I feel like tote bags are always poppin.

Nathan Holbert:
Oh, yeah. Definitely. Especially in New York City.

Haeny Yoon:
Yeah.

Nathan Holbert:
Speaking of Hypercolor, I distinctly remember somebody telling me about having a pair of Hypercolor workout shorts, and they wore them once. Exactly one time because they wore them, and then they realized that the only place it had changed color was right through the crotch, and they're like, "Oh. Yeah, this is a terrible idea," and they never wore them again.

Haeny Yoon:
Unexpected. I thought you were going to say butt, but that's even worse.

Nathan Holbert:
Yeah, it's even worse. It's even worse. Okay, so we're both from the Midwest.

Haeny Yoon:
The Midwest always gets a bad rap when it comes to fashion, and I think we don't get enough credit for the fashion aesthetic that we bring to the table, because I do think we all learned during the pandemic that comfort trumps-

Nathan Holbert:
Yeah.

Haeny Yoon:
Fashion, and you could also make comfortable things fashionable. Yeah.

Nathan Holbert:
Yeah. See, my fashion did not change during the pandemic, because I wear the same-

Haeny Yoon:
You just wear the same...

Nathan Holbert:
Things whether I'm sitting around the house or whether I'm here in the office.

Haeny Yoon:
Yeah. Well, what is Midwestern fashion?

Nathan Holbert:
Right.

Haeny Yoon:
What is the stereotype that comes with Midwestern aesthetic? Definitely shorts at any time of the year.

Nathan Holbert:
Yeah. The thing that feels super distinctly Midwestern to me is wearing a pair of cargo shorts when it's November and it's like 43 degrees outside.

Haeny Yoon:
Yeah.

Nathan Holbert:
Still wearing cargo shorts on that day.

Haeny Yoon:
And flip-flops or Birkenstocks or something like that.

Nathan Holbert:
Yeah. Maybe with socks, maybe not, depends. I'm curious, Haeny, about the intergenerational aspect here. I'm curious about whether you ever raided mother's closet for clothes or anything like that.

Haeny Yoon:
I did. Yeah. That was the first time I actually saw my mom in a new light because I saw her as mom aesthetic.

Nathan Holbert:
Sure.

Haeny Yoon:
I don't want to describe that because I don't want to offend anybody, but I remember going into her closet and she just kept a lot of her clothes from back in the day, which I didn't, and I wish I did actually, but she had these cute little skirts and these cute little blazers that I'm like, "Oh my God, they're so cool," and so I took it. Recently, I actually raided my mom's closet because my mom used to work at a post office. She's retired now, so they have the outfits that people at the postal service wear, like those striped shirts.

Nathan Holbert:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Haeny Yoon:
There was a cardigan with a post... One of those-

Nathan Holbert:
Yeah, the badge.

Haeny Yoon:
Yeah. One of those badge things, so I took them.

Nathan Holbert:
Nice.

Haeny Yoon:
I almost wore it again today, but I decided it didn't fit me right now, so I decided to leave-

Nathan Holbert:
You should've done the postal aesthetic.

Haeny Yoon:
Yeah, but I did take that and I brought it with me all the way to New York because I'm like, "I'm going to wear this postal outfit-"

Nathan Holbert:
That's going to be very cool. Yeah.

Haeny Yoon:
"at some point." Yes. It's going to be really cool.

Nathan Holbert:
Yeah, no, I think you're probably right. You raised an important point. This conversation, we're going to be poking some fun and we're going to be also talking about things that I don't understand, but we're not trying to make fun of anything, or we're not trying to make anyone feel bad about what they're wearing. Again, my whole deal is I don't care what I'm wearing, what I look like, and oftentimes, that comes back to bite me, but for the most part, we're not trying to make anyone feel crappy about their fashion choices.
With that in mind, I want us to start defending some fashion stances here.

Haeny Yoon:
Yeah.

Nathan Holbert:
Maybe either end of these particular stances, but I think it's time that we take on some tough issues on this show. I want to start with something that is near and dear to my heart.

Haeny Yoon:
Okay.

Nathan Holbert:
And that is cargo shorts. I am sick and tired.

Haeny Yoon:
Boo.

Nathan Holbert:
I am sick and tired of all the hate just thrown at wearing cargo shorts. They're so comfortable and useful. The number of things I can carry in my shorts is... You know what? If I didn't wear the cargo shorts, then my kids and my spouse would be complaining that like, "Oh, we're having to carry everything." No. Dad's got it all. They're all in the various pockets, and I think people should just lay off.

Haeny Yoon:
I argue that this is what a bag like this is for.

Nathan Holbert:
You're holding up a fanny pack.

Haeny Yoon:
Yeah. That you can wear as a fashionable bag. You see? You see how awesome that is?

Nathan Holbert:
Yeah. That's very-

Haeny Yoon:
Why can't you have that versus cargo shorts? Yeah, no, no. I hate cargo shorts.

Nathan Holbert:
My spouse is also a big fan of the fanny pack, and she has been wearing the fanny pack for a number of years, and there was a time a number of years ago where she was like, "This is going to come back. This is cool."

Haeny Yoon:
She was correct.

Nathan Holbert:
She was correct. She was 100% correct. It's come back. You know what? I'm thankful that she also has some extra storage, but I still need my cargo pants storage.

Haeny Yoon:
Okay. Well, I don't know. We'll see how our guests feel about cargo shorts.

Nathan Holbert:
Yeah, I bet they're going to have opinions about... Yeah.

Haeny Yoon:
Nathan, I think we're going to bring in some special guests to talk about intergenerational fashion.

Nathan Holbert:
Finally, some non-Midwesterners to help us think through these issues.

Haeny Yoon:
Yes, exactly.

Nathan Holbert:
That's perfect.

Haeny Yoon:
Yes.

[musical interlude]

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
I'm zoning in.

Haeny Yoon:
Yeah.

Nathan Holbert:
Zone in.

Haeny Yoon:
We're very, very excited to have our two guests today, Yolanda and Olivia.

Nathan Holbert:
Finally, two people not from the Midwest that can talk about fashion.

Haeny Yoon:
Exactly. Maybe they could teach us a thing or two.

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
Oh. I was trying to think over here. Should I say that I'm from the Midwest?

Nathan Holbert:
Oh, no.

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
Okay. Olivia, should you say you're from the Midwest?

Olivia Ruiz:
If you need me to, I will.

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
Okay.

Nathan Holbert:
Would you want to introduce each other? We know you, but I'm curious if you guys would like to introduce each other to our listeners.

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
That sounds terrific. Okay. I'd like to introduce my wonderful daughter, Olivia Irene Ruiz, who, for me, is a fashion icon. She has been really since the age of 11 or 12. What's also amazing is seeing her fashion almost reincarnate some of mine from the eighties.

Nathan Holbert:
Nice.

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
That's how I'd like to introduce Olivia. She's currently a high school senior, college bound.

Haeny Yoon:
Wow.

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
We don't know where.

Nathan Holbert:
Wow.

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
But I know she'll end up exactly where she needs to be.

Nathan Holbert:
Awesome.

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
Yeah.

Nathan Holbert:
Fantastic.

Olivia Ruiz:
This is my mom, Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz. For me, I would say really big inspiration of mine when it comes to fashion in my immediate family. I would say a lot of the inspiration I draw as a now teenager in terms of my fashion does come from old photos that I have stumbled across throughout the years and trying to recreate the looks that you had when you were my age that I...

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
Wow. Amazing.

Olivia Ruiz:
Find really trendy.

Haeny Yoon:
That is the ultimate compliment. Is it not?

Nathan Holbert:
Yeah. That's good.

Haeny Yoon:
Oh my gosh. I would be like, "Oh, please don't look at my photos and try to dress like I did."

Nathan Holbert:
I'm sure my kids are going to do exactly the same. They're gonna be like man, Dad.

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
In this moment, if the listeners could only see how awesome you look in your scarf, hat, and shades.

Nathan Holbert:
This old thing?

Haeny Yoon:
Now Olivia's going to request pictures of you as a kid and try to recreate.

Olivia Ruiz:
Oh, I'll recreate it. I got you.

Nathan Holbert:
Don't do it. Olivia, it was a great introduction that kicks off exactly what this episode is really about. What made Haeny really think about why we should talk about fashion, is the fact that there are these really interesting intergenerational relationships that emerge and get recreated around fashion.

Haeny Yoon:
Yeah. I always think about how people, when I was younger, would say, "Fashion always comes back. It always comes back to something else." I'm like, "Okay, just shut up. Whatever. You just want to seem like you were cool back in the day," but it's so true, right?

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
Totally.

Haeny Yoon:
I was telling Nathan I would walk around the streets and be like, "Oh my God, if I had just saved all my stuff from..."

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
Oh my gosh. Yes.

Haeny Yoon:
Right? Don't you wish you could have them back?

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
Listen, I still wish I had my Jordache jeans, which are now $275.

Haeny Yoon:
What?

Olivia Ruiz:
You were telling me about that this summer.

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
Yeah. I'm sure I only paid like $19.99.

Haeny Yoon:
Yeah.

Nathan Holbert:
Yeah.

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
Back in the day-

Haeny Yoon:
At JC Penney.

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
At JC Penney.

Nathan Holbert:
I remember Jordache.

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
You remember Jordache. You remember JC Penney.

Nathan Holbert:
Yeah.

Haeny Yoon:
Yeah.

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
My Gitano jeans.

Haeny Yoon:
Yeah.

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
There are a lot of things I wish I held onto, but just didn't have the space.

Haeny Yoon:
Yeah.

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
So true, Haeny, what you're saying. So true. I think that that's what makes it pretty awesome to see how it does come back, but it also comes back with a bit of a spin.

Nathan Holbert:
Yeah.

Haeny Yoon:
Yeah, for sure.

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
Because even when Olivia... When I had my 1980s birthday party in homage to the era that I grew up and all of the fashion that was beautiful, I think, and quirky in the 1980s, Olivia still had her spin to it. It's great to see it come back and also with a "ah," a little bit of a twist.

Haeny Yoon:
Yeah, for sure.

Nathan Holbert:
Yeah. Speaking of eighties fashions, are poofy-

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
Shoulder pads?

Nathan Holbert:
Shoulders and things, is that coming back? Hope not.

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
Wait a minute. I've got... I don't have shoulder pads right now, but-

Nathan Holbert:
You don't have poofy-

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
No, but I did hate that style, to be honest. It felt like you were walking around with a box on your shoulders, right?

Nathan Holbert:
Yeah.

Olivia Ruiz:
Yeah. Well, yeah. Actually right now, I'm starring in my school play, and it takes place in 1986. It's really interesting how all the costuming... Yesterday, the director was telling me... I have these high-platform Doc Martens, and she was saying, "You cannot wear these during the show because they scream 1995. They're not 1980s at all." She's paying really close attention to all the details, but it's really fun because we have a scene towards the end of the show where we all come out in pageant dresses and a lot of them scream like shoulder pads...

Haeny Yoon:
Oh, that's awesome.

Nathan Holbert:
Yep.

Olivia Ruiz:
1980s, neon.

Haeny Yoon:
Neon.

Nathan Holbert:
Sequins.

Haeny Yoon:
It's kind fun though. Every now and then it's like fun to revisit things like that.

Olivia Ruiz:
Exactly.

Haeny Yoon:
What's the name of the play that you're starring in, Olivia?

Olivia Ruiz:
It's called School Girls; Or, The African Mean Girls Play by Jocelyn Bioh.

Nathan Holbert:
Oh, cool.

Haeny Yoon:
Oh, that's awesome.

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
Because you know there's always mean girls in high school.

Haeny Yoon:
Are there?

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
That's another podcast.

Haeny Yoon:
Yeah. Nathan, were you a mean girl?

Nathan Holbert:
No, no.

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
Now that's another podcast, for sure.

Nathan Holbert:
You had to have someone to talk to be a mean.

Haeny Yoon:
Oh, stop.

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
Aww.

Nathan Holbert:
Just kidding.

Haeny Yoon:
Nathan likes to play the victim all the time.

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
Oh my gosh. It's fashion. Are we talking about fashion because I feel like I want to cry?

Haeny Yoon:
Are we trying process our high school trauma? Is that what we're talking right now?

Nathan Holbert:
Let's talk about me some more, everybody.

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
Absolutely.

Nathan Holbert:
One of the ways we like to start this out is with a game, and we have a game that we like to call Pop or Nop. The way Pop or Nop works is we're going to give you a thing, in this case, a fashion belief or...

Olivia Ruiz:
Oh, I like this. Yeah.

Nathan Holbert:
A type of style, and we want to know if it's poppin' or if it's not poppin,' so pop or nop. I'm going to start with something that is really close to my heart, and that is cargo shorts. Pop or nop?

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
I say they're poppin'.

Olivia Ruiz:
Me too, if it's styled right.

Haeny Yoon:
What?

Nathan Holbert:
Haeny.

Haeny Yoon:
Oh. I just got through arguing with Nathan for 10 minutes about how I hate cargo shorts and they are not...

Olivia Ruiz:
I think if it's not styled right, yeah.

Haeny Yoon:
Okay.

Olivia Ruiz:
But if they are, I would say yes.

Haeny Yoon:
How is that styled right? Give me an example, Olivia.

Olivia Ruiz:
Well, I don't wear them, but...

Haeny Yoon:
Okay, so they're not popping.

Nathan Holbert:
Oh, come on.

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
Friends.

Olivia Ruiz:
I have a very close friend who wears cargo shorts a lot, and she kind of likes to pair with sort of long t-shirts. I would say extra large t-shirts, purposefully large, and it's oversized, I would say, with cargo shorts. That look is nice, but I think if it's not paired right, if it's tight shorts and a really tight shirt, I think it just looks kind of awkward.

Haeny Yoon:
Oh yeah, that's...

Nathan Holbert:
No, that's...

Olivia Ruiz:
It needs to be loose or tight or tight or loose.

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
The tightness.

Olivia Ruiz:
Yeah.

Nathan Holbert:
Yeah.

Haeny Yoon:
Okay, but what if you wear cargo shorts so that you could put your keys and your phone and your piece of gum and 12 pens and...

Nathan Holbert:
Water bottles sometimes.

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
Don't go out the house please.

Nathan Holbert:
I've got things to carry.

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
Oh, Nathan, that's you?

Nathan Holbert:
Of course it's me!

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
Oh gee! Can we get this man a bag or something?

Haeny:
Exactly.

Nathan Holbert:
Oh no.

Haeny Yoon:
That's what I said a bag is for.

Nathan Holbert:
You turned them against me.

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
Oh my God. His birthday's coming, maybe, we'll get him a bag.

Haeny Yoon:
Oh my gosh.

Nathan Holbert:
All right, so cargo shorts are popping. That's what you all heard here.

Haeny Yoon:
That is not what I heard. I heard a very nuanced answer to that.

Nathan Holbert:
I heard popping from both of them, so I don't know. I don't know what to tell you. You can take over.

Haeny Yoon:
Okay, the next one. Okay, so behind me you'll see that I have what I call cult fashion. That was a very short-lived thing. I don't know if either of you remember this, but there was a time when you're supposed to kind of dress like you're in a cult. There's those long flowy dresses, and if you need a visual, it's right here.

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
You know what? I do like the black one. The gray one is okay too. I would wear it in the summer at the beach.

Haeny Yoon:
Ah.

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
It would pop at the beach, but not in the street. Is that fair?

Haeny Yoon:
Yes. Love that answer.

Olivia Ruiz:
I would say nop, only because I feel like now it's a little outdated, but definitely 2014, height of Tumblr, Lana Del Rey, that type of era.

Haeny Yoon:
Yeah, yeah.

Olivia Ruiz:
I would see people wearing those dresses all the time.

Haeny Yoon:
Yeah, yeah. Too bad I bought it in 2020.

Olivia Ruiz:
It's okay. It's okay.

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
Our condolences.

Haeny Yoon:
Our condolences.

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
Fashion passion, fashion condolences, what do we do?

Haeny Yoon:
But I agree, it's not popping. That's why I brought it here today and refused to wear it.

Olivia Ruiz:
You're trying to get rid of it.

Haeny Yoon:
Yeah, exactly.

Nathan Holbert:
Should have worn it. Should have worn it.

Olivia Ruiz:
Okay.

Haeny Yoon:
I know. How about skinny jeans in general?

Olivia Ruiz:
I hate skinny jeans.

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
Excuse me.

Olivia Ruiz:
I'm saying that as, I used to be a former skinny jeans...

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
Wearer?

Olivia Ruiz:
I don't know. Wearer, yeah. I used to wear skinny jeans all the time, not now.

Haeny Yoon:
Tell me why you hate it so much.

Olivia Ruiz:
Well, now I just feel like they're uncomfortable to wear.

Haeny Yoon:
Yep.

Olivia Ruiz:
I just prefer to wear jeans that are more loose fitting.

Nathan Holbert:
Yeah.

Olivia Ruiz:
Yeah, pretty much.

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
But I want to say, wait a minute, skinny jeans, skinny pants for men are popping, of a particular age. They're what we used to call high waters back in the day. You know that expression.

Haeny Yoon:
Yeah, yeah.

Nathan Holbert:
Yep.

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
Like, "Oh my gosh, your pants are so high. If there's a flood, they won't get wet." So we call them high waters.

Nathan Holbert:
Yep, yep.

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
But that is the style with these pointy shoes and really close to the body. I want to say they're popping for men of a particular age and a particular fashion sense.

Haeny Yoon:
Very nice. I think that's the description of fashion. You have to just own whatever you decide you're going to wear and what fits you.

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
That's the beauty about fashion, that people should be free. I don't know, maybe that is another podcast. Who are we wearing it for? Are we conscious of the fact that we do have an audience, even though we're choosing something to wear for ourselves?

Nathan Holbert:
Always, yeah.

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
You do have an audience when you choose to go in public, right? I don't know. What do you think, Olivia?

Olivia Ruiz:
I would say fashion is subjective, for sure. One thing that may be fashionable to one person may not, but I feel like, particularly for me, when I wear outfits that are really, I guess, would be extravagant, when I'm going to a concert, I say I'm more so dressing for myself and kind of the event, because I know other people are going to be wearing similar outfits, moreso than just to make a statement, I would say.

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
Wow.

Olivia Ruiz:
I think it depends, yeah.

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
Maybe that's it. Understanding your audience, understanding your context, and being able to dress to hit that.

Haeny Yoon:
I think both of you are right. Both of you are saying kind of similar things.

Nathan Holbert:
Yeah.

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
For sure.

Haeny Yoon:
Yeah. Okay. Our next one, fedoras.

Olivia Ruiz:
I used to wear these all the time when I was in second grade.

Nathan Holbert:
Second grade.

Haeny Yoon:
You wore Fedoras in second grade?

Olivia Ruiz:
I'm so serious. Yes, and it was the glittery ones from Forever 21 too.

Nathan Holbert:
Nice.

Olivia Ruiz:
It was pink.

Nathan Holbert:
Yeah.

Olivia Ruiz:
I think I thought I was Hannah Montana. That's why I wore them.

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
Oh my gosh. I love fedoras for men. I love them for women too. I have a few fedoras.

Haeny Yoon:
We thought so.

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
Yeah, but I never really set with them.

Haeny Yoon:
Yeah.

Nathan Holbert:
Yeah.

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
But I would say they're in. Yeah, I think they're a classic. They're classic.

Haeny Yoon:
Yeah.

Olivia Ruiz:
Me too. I think so.

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
Pop, pop, pop, pop. Popping.

Nathan Holbert:
The thing about Fedoras is I always think of, there used to be, there was a meme that went around a long time ago that was, "What you think you look like in a fedora," and it as a white guy, like myself, and you think you look like Indiana Jones, but what you really look like is this guy with a giant head and tiny hat.

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
OMG.

Nathan Holbert:
It's like, "Oh yeah, no, it doesn't work for me."

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
Not Indiana Jones.

Olivia Ruiz:
I love that.

Haeny Yoon:
Oh my gosh, that's so great.

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
I love that. Yes, it is.

Nathan Holbert:
I do like though Haeny being very surprised by the fashion takes. That's making me happy.

Haeny Yoon:
I know. he's really loving this.

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
Can I just say, this is awesome. This moment, this everything right here. I am so happy.

Haeny Yoon:
Oh my gosh.

Nathan Holbert:
I think we might be done with Pop or nop. You guys had a lot of...

Haeny Yoon:
I think that was awesome.

Nathan Holbert:
Yeah, that was great. That was... It clarified some important issues, primarily, cargo shorts are popping.

Olivia Ruiz:
Yeah.

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
Mm-hmm.

Haeny Yoon:
I feel like we should ask about who you think is a fashion icon.

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
I have a few.

Haeny Yoon:
Mm-hmm.

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
I'm thinking, RuPaul.

Haeny Yoon:
Yes.

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
In drag or outside of drag.

Haeny Yoon:
Yes.

Nathan Holbert:
Yeah.

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
RuPaul is just amazing.

Haeny Yoon:
I feel like RuPaul's fashion, even outside of drag, is actually better.

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
It's gorgeous.

Haeny Yoon:
It's kind of amazing. Yeah.

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
Gorgeous.
For me, hands down, Janet Jackson. That's over time, that's traveling across decades.

Nathan Holbert:
That is, yeah.

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
Now it's so awesome to see her emerge in her fashion-ness as she's doing covers for Vogue Magazine and taking on all of these fashion contracts. But I would say Janet, because she's classic and she changes with the decade and yet, still is a little bit edgy every time.

Haeny Yoon:
Nice.

Olivia Ruiz:
For me, I would say, for my generation, I would say Zendaya, honestly.

Haeny Yoon:
Yes.

Nathan Holbert:
Yeah.

Olivia Ruiz:
In terms of all the red carpet looks that she's always wearing. I think, what was it, the Emmys this year, she wore this really elegant black dress.

Haeny Yoon:
Yeah, with pockets.

Olivia Ruiz:
Yes. Yes. Exactly.

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
Thank god for pockets.

Haeny Yoon:
Yeah.

Olivia Ruiz:
I would say Zendaya 100%. Even her street style.

Haeny Yoon:
So good.

Olivia Ruiz:
When I just see pictures of her out in the street.

Haeny Yoon:
Yeah.

Olivia Ruiz:
So good. I would say Beyonce too.

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
For sure.

Olivia Ruiz:
I would say specifically the Lemonade era with that yellow dress.

Haeny Yoon:
Yeah.

Olivia Ruiz:
Everyone was trying to recreate that come Halloween.

Haeny Yoon:
Yeah.

Olivia Ruiz:
Yeah.

Haeny Yoon:
That was gorgeous.

Olivia Ruiz:
Yeah.

Haeny Yoon:
The thing about Zendaya is I feel like she wears a very big t-shirt and jeans and she looks amazing.

Olivia Ruiz:
Exactly, and then works.

Haeny Yoon:
Then she goes into the Emmy's and puts on this beautiful ground and she looks amazing, so, basically, hate her.

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
Oh my gosh. Don't tell.

Haeny Yoon:
I'm just kidding. She's amazing.

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
Amazing.

Haeny Yoon:
I think she's awesome.

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
Absolutely, and so are you, Haeny. For real.

Nathan Holbert:
Okay. Olivia, if you could go through Yolie's closet, check out the different things that are there, wear them around. I'm wondering, first of all, have you done that? Second of all, are there any items that you've encountered that kind of made you think a little bit differently about your mom than you might have before?

Olivia Ruiz:
Yeah, I'll kind of go backwards. I would say, have I ever raided my mom's closet? I would say for business casual things, a couple of times for photo day, I've worn her pants or her shirts or sweaters. I would say if I could steal one item, I don't know. I don't think you have it anymore, but it was kind of like this vintage NYU sweater that had purple embroidered letters. I saw a picture of it when I was going through the photo albums and I was like, "Oh, I really wish you still had this." But then I found a sweater that was sort of similar online, and then I actually bought it.

Haeny Yoon:
Oh, nice.

Nathan Holbert:
Nice.

Olivia Ruiz:
Because I was like, I want something that resembles the sweater-

Nathan Holbert:
Yeah, yeah.

Olivia Ruiz:
Because I love the way that it's made. That's in my closet now. I would say, I guess going through your closet now, I've definitely seen how your style, in a lot of ways, has evolved, but it's not so much different than the way that you used to dress when you were my age or even in your early twenties.

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
That's how I stay young. Olivia, thank you for noticing that. Wow.

Haeny Yoon:
Yeah. In early twenties yesterday, you know?

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
Exactly. Yeah. I love your timeline.

Haeny Yoon:
Yeah. What is time?

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
What is time?

Haeny Yoon:
What is time? Yeah.

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
Wow. Olivia, you're amazing.

Haeny Yoon:
That is really nice. You are. Okay, so same question to you. Yolie, is there something in Olivia's closet that you're kind of secretly hoping that you could steal or that you look at and you'd want?

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
Yeah, I just wish I could fit it. I just can't fit it. She has the most beautiful sweaters and I don't know, I just love her style and it's so intricate, or varied, I would say. Not intricate. It could go from stripes, hoodies, fur, it's just so varied. But the one thing, there's this blue sweater you have, am I making this up? It's kind of furry.

Olivia Ruiz:
Oh yeah.

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
That is the item I wish I could fit.

Haeny Yoon:
Aw.

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
It's gorgeous.

Haeny Yoon:
That's so nice.

Olivia Ruiz:
I have this blue, I bought it, I think, 2020.

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
Yeah.

Olivia Ruiz:
Yeah, December of 2020.

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
It's beautiful.

Olivia Ruiz:
Yeah, it's a blue furry sweater and I think it says the words "Whatever."

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
And also, her Doc Marten platforms.

Olivia Ruiz:
That's my favorite shoes.

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
That takes me back to the eighties.

Nathan Holbert:
Yeah.

Haeny Yoon:
Yeah, totally.

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
If I could fit those and I could walk in them, I would.

Haeny Yoon:
Totally.

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
Yeah. Thank you for that question. Super cool.

Haeny Yoon:
Where do we want to go next? We have so many questions.

Nathan Holbert:
Fashion wise or no?

Haeny Yoon:
Yeah. Where do we want to go fashion wise?

Nathan Holbert:
What's the next fashion? If you could kind of project, not project in the sense, necessarily, that you're trying to read the world, I'm thinking more if you got to decide what the next trend is three years from now, what's it going to be? What are you going to bring into style?

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
What do you think?

Olivia Ruiz:
I probably... Well, yeah, this does constitute for fashion. I would say bringing back chunky hoop earrings and just kind of really thick gold jewelry that a lot of people...

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
Eighties.

Olivia Ruiz:
Exactly, and even early 2000s.

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
Nailed it in the eighties. We nailed it.

Olivia Ruiz:
Yeah, I would say that.

Haeny Yoon:
Yeah.

Olivia Ruiz:
Because I think jewelry really can make an outfit too.

Haeny Yoon:
Yeah, for sure.

Olivia Ruiz:
So I think bringing that back.

Haeny Yoon:
Yeah.

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
Listeners, I wish you could see the necklaces that are happening at this moment.

Haeny Yoon:
Yeah. Your necklaces are great.

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
Thank you. They go with the shoes.

Haeny Yoon:
Yeah. Very nice.

Nathan Holbert:
Yeah.

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
That's a thing too. Olivia, that's awesome.

Haeny Yoon:
I think that's actually a really insightful one.

Nathan Holbert:
Yeah.

Haeny Yoon:
Because I feel like the last couple of years it's been all about fine jewelry.

Olivia Ruiz:
Yeah.

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
Accessorize.

Haeny Yoon:
Yeah, and maybe now we need to shift to chunky or shift back.

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
I'm all for it. That was going to be my answer too. I think for me it's revisiting some fashions. Yes, I'm a big eighties person, but it might be time for the nineties to have a resurgence. I think also a bit of the future Afro futurism. I would like to see, actually, a lot of black designers that are on the edge, I would like to see that come to the center with a little bit of nineties kind of flavor to it.

Nathan Holbert:
Yeah.

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
That would be my thing. Yeah.

Olivia Ruiz:
Make it happen.

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
Make it happen. Afro futuristic nineties.

Olivia Ruiz:
Find a designer.

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
Exactly.

Nathan Holbert:
I like it.

Haeny Yoon:
What about you? How are you going to bring cargo pants back [indistinct]?

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
That you can fit your keys and your phone.

Nathan Holbert:
Girl, they never left.

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
Oh my gosh.

Haeny Yoon:
I can't with this one.

Nathan Holbert:
My spouse has definitely bought me shorts that are not cargo shorts recently as sort of a subtle, "You know you could wear other kinds of shorts." Maybe I'll let go eventually.

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
That'll be your courageous act. That'll be your courageous fashion act. Yeah.

Olivia Ruiz: Not today.

Haeny Yoon:
Maybe I'll ask one more question. This is going to be a little bit of a serious pivot.

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
Okay.

Haeny Yoon:
Yeah. Okay.

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
Ask Olivia first.

Haeny Yoon:
No, I'm just wondering, why does fashion matter to you? Why do you think it's important? Beyond the things that we wear and they come and go all the time. Yeah. What do you think it means for people? What does it mean for you personally?

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
You want me to try?

Olivia Ruiz:
I can go.

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
Okay, go ahead, please.

Olivia Ruiz:
I feel it's a little bit of a generic answer, but I would say fashion is really one of the only ways you can have self-expression in an outward sense. I feel like, particularly for me, in terms of the different fashion trends and things that I like to follow and things I like to wear, it allows me to really express how I'm feeling. I think a lot about concerts too. When I go to Harry Styles concerts it's kind of this kind of norm where people wear these extravagant outfits and wear boas and all these platform high heels. Everyone is kind of dressed the same, but they bring their own take to what...

Nathan Holbert:
Yeah.

Olivia Ruiz:
I guess, the theme of the concert is, which is mostly just bright colors and just wearing whatever you want, honestly.

Nathan Holbert:
Yeah.

Olivia Ruiz:
It doesn't even have to be extravagant. I feel like, for me, definitely in terms of the more, I would say, spectacle-y outfits that I like to wear, whether to a party or to a concert, it really allows me to just take the time to express myself and the things that I'm feeling in that moment. Yeah. Just a way for me to, I don't know, to show who I am.

Haeny Yoon:
Yeah.

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
That's super...

Nathan Holbert:
I love that.

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
Brilliant and beautiful. As you were talking, I was thinking, of course, yes, identity and expression, but also kind of community building, right?

Nathan Holbert:
Yeah.

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
It's being the individual, but also being a member of a community, and that means there's belonging.

Nathan Holbert:
Yeah.

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
That's there. There's so many emotions that are wrapped up into the act of participating in a particular fashion community or just being yourself. That's what I would say, that is absolutely an opportunity to express your inner feelings, also be courageous. Fashion sometimes, particularly for shy people, if you say, "I'm going to take the courage to wear that crop top," in some ways... All right, I know I'm pushing the line here, but it's kind of this self therapy too.

Haeny Yoon:
Yeah.

Nathan Holbert:
Yeah.

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
That you are pushing yourself.

Haeny Yoon:
Yeah.

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
Seeing yourself differently, at the same time, expressing who you are and being in community. It's a beautiful thing.

Haeny Yoon:
Yeah.

Nathan Holbert:
That's great.

Haeny Yoon:
Yeah, it's individual and collective.

Nathan Holbert:
Yep.

Olivia Ruiz:
Totally.

Haeny Yoon:
That's what fashion can do.

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
Yeah.

Haeny Yoon:
I'm thinking about, because you brought up RuPaul, I'm going to butcher the quote. I wish I had it up in front of me, but I don't. RuPaul said something about how we're all born naked and the rest of it is drag.

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
Wow.

Haeny Yoon:
All the rest of your life...

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
Wow.

Haeny Yoon:
You're just trying out different things.

Nathan Holbert:
That's great.

Haeny Yoon:
Dressing up, dressing down, figuring out how you're going to be in the world. That's what we're doing every single day by we put on and...

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
Wow.

Olivia Ruiz:
Also I think a lot about how much my style and fashion has changed...

Haeny Yoon:
Yeah.

Olivia Ruiz:
As I've gotten older. When I look at old photos and I look back, like, "Oh, I used to wear fedoras and chokers and all these things." Things that are so clearly outdated now, and I'm like, "Oh, wow." It's really interesting to think about how much I've grown and then how my style has grown with that.

Haeny Yoon:
Yeah.

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
Almost like a marker.

Haeny Yoon:
Yeah.

Nathan Holbert:
Yeah.

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
That's the beauty, I guess, of photographs, right?

Nathan Holbert:
Yeah, yeah.

Olivia Ruiz:
For sure.

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
Seeing... Wow.

Olivia Ruiz:
I feel like even going to school, because even at my high school, it's people from all these different boroughs. Even though, obviously, it would seem weird, what does fashion have to do with boroughs? I would say definitely, I would say people that I go to school that are from Brooklyn kind of have their own sort of style.

Haeny Yoon:
Yeah.

Olivia Ruiz:
Same with kids that are from the Bronx and Queens and Manhattan. It's interesting to be around all these different people from all over the city, every single day, and then seeing how their fashion differs from another person who's from a different borough, or even from a different part of their borough.

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
So insightful, Olivia.

Nathan Holbert:
Yeah.

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
Definitely.

Haeny Yoon:
Totally.

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
Particularly in New York, borough culture is real.

Haeny Yoon:
Totally. It's so true.

Nathan Holbert:
Yeah, true.

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
I threw up the Bronx sign.

Nathan Holbert:
Yep.

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
Because, again, going back to the eighties, it was similar.

Nathan Holbert:
Yeah.

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
People may have been rocking an Adidas suit or rocking a particular hat or Kangol, but you wore it in a certain way. Maybe people in Queens wore it to the right, or people in the Bronx tipped it back. Yeah, it's really a beautiful expression and maybe that's the community too.

Nathan Holbert:
Yeah.

Haeny Yoon:
Yeah, for sure.

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
In some ways, repping the community that you're from is done through fashion.

Haeny Yoon:
Yeah, totally.

Nathan Holbert:
What a great way to connect all the different pieces that we've been thinking about and talking about here. Especially with regard to our broad goal of discussing and thinking about play in this podcast and the ways in which play is such an important part of fashion and an important part of engaging with fashion and exploring fashion. To your guys' point, over and over again, the identity aspect, the individual aspect, but also the kind of community aspect, how you play together in this space as well. That's awesome.

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
Wow.

Nathan Holbert:
I guess it's good that we talked about fashion after all.

Haeny Yoon:
Yeah, for sure. Sometimes I think even in a busy day, the only time that sometimes we get to play is deciding what to wear.

Nathan Holbert:
Yeah.

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
Wow.

Haeny Yoon:
Right.

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
Nice.

Haeny Yoon:
Okay. We usually like to ask our guests one last question. The question is, what's poppin? Basically, what is out there in popular culture that you're engaging with, that you're interested in, that you feel like other people should be into too?

Nathan Holbert:
Yes.

Haeny Yoon:
It could be a book, a film, a movie, television show, it could be Wakanda Forever, whatever you want it to be. But what's poppin right now?

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
I am thinking COVID-19, what we're still coming out of, the need for rest. For me, what's poppin, and I think for a couple of million other people is The Nap Ministry.

Haeny Yoon:
Yes.

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
I'm forgetting the author's name at the moment, but her book is out. She did a talk at the Schomburg. She's been doing talks all over the country, really trying to encourage people to pause, to rest, to take naps. Why I think that's popping is that when I do have a moment to pause and meditate and take naps, my creativity is off the charts.

Nathan Holbert:
Wow.

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
My brain goes in so many directions. I just want to create. So, what's poppin for me right now is rest and taking naps.

Haeny Yoon:
Very nice.

Nathan Holbert:
Wow. That is... Wow. I feel so good about that.

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
Yes. You're going to take a nap right after this.

Nathan Holbert:
Good night.

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
Good.

Haeny Yoon:
The thing is, I have that book. I've had it for a couple of weeks and I've not paused to look at it yet.

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
Okay. This is your moment.

Nathan Holbert:
It's perfect.

Haeny Yoon:
Yes, for sure.

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
Yeah. Thanks for the question.

Olivia Ruiz:
Let me think. What is popping? Weirdly enough, there's this place, I can't remember the name, but it's in Brooklyn and you get to design your own carpet, and I think it's really cool because you draw your own design and they help you design it. Then you spend, I think, three hours in a workshop just designing like this carpet, and then you take it home with you. I feel like that's really cool because, I am definitely not an artist. I wish I was able to draw and do all of those things, but I think it's a really nice and relaxing experience just to go somewhere and spend a couple of hours just unleashing your creative side and you're creating something that you can take home with you and have with you in your household. I wish I knew the name, but it's in Brooklyn.

Haeny Yoon:
I love that.

Nathan Holbert:
We should go.

Olivia Ruiz:
I saw it on TikTok.

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
We should go, Olivia.

Olivia Ruiz:
Yeah, we should.

Haeny Yoon:
I love that. That's such a great answer.

Olivia Ruiz:
Yeah.

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
I've just learned something new and that's why I love hanging out with you, Olivia, because I literally learned something new.

Nathan Holbert:
Is it called Scattered Kind?

Olivia Ruiz:
You know what, it may be, if it's in Brooklyn. Yeah.

Nathan Holbert:
Scattered Kinds.

Olivia Ruiz:
Oh, Scattered Kinds. Yeah.

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
Awesome.

Haeny Yoon:
That looks pretty great.

Nathan Holbert:
Yes.

Haeny Yoon:
Yeah. Okay. Well thank you so much. Thank you for joining us. We love this. This was so much fun.

Nathan Holbert:
Yeah, this is great.

Haeny Yoon:
If you'd like a plug for intergenerational relationships, Yolanda, like you said, you learn a lot from Olivia and I think that's true.

Nathan Holbert:
Yeah.

Haeny Yoon:
We all learn a lot from each other.

Olivia Ruiz:
I learn a lot from her.

Nathan Holbert:
Yeah.

Olivia Ruiz:
Obviously.

Nathan Holbert:
Aw.

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
Love fest.

Haeny Yoon:
Yeah, seriously.

Nathan Holbert:
All right. Thanks, guys.

Haeny Yoon:
All right, bye bye.

Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz:
Bye bye.

Olivia Ruiz:
Bye.

[Theme music starts]

Nathan Holbert:
This season of Pop and Play was produced by Haeny Yoon, Nathan Holbert, Lalitha Vasudevan, Billy Collins, and Joe Riina-Ferrie, and assistant produced by Lucius Von Joo at Teachers College, Columbia University with the Digital Futures Institute. Audio editing and production by Billy Collins.

Haeny Yoon:
For transcripts, and to learn more about our guests, visit tc.edu/popandplay. Our music is selections from Leaf Eaters by Podington Bear. Pop and Play, of course, would not be possible without the fabulous team that helps put this together. Thanks to Oluwaseun Animashaun for running the Pop and Play social media accounts where you should follow us on Twitter, Instagram, and TikTok under @popandplaypod. You can also follow us on Twitch under popandplay. Special thanks to Drew Reynolds, Jen Lee, Blake Danzig, Brianne Minaudo, Moira McCavana, and Lucius Von Joo who all helped with our outreach and or website support. Shout out to Ioana Literat for the Trashies, watch on Instagram and TikTok. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you next time.